What kind of Father demands the blood of His Son?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:40 pm

Is the God of Jesus a merciful forgiving Father?

Or a bloodthirsty deity who must be appeased by the blood of animals, then later, by the blood of His favorite Son?

I realize these are loaded questions, and that my bias is apparent.

But which is it, merciful Father or Judge who demands blood?*

Which kind of God did Jesus himself teach? (not Paul, but Jesus)

What kind of Father demands the blood of his favorite Son in order to be able to forgive his other children?

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(note.. this thread is about forgiveness and atonement, not about the wars of YHVH's people etc.)

*if you answer "both" then please demonstrate how the two notions are compatible.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:21 pm

[Replying to post 67 by 2timothy316]

The point that you ignore is that there is a justice beyond human justice. That a good ruler doesn't just drop laws when they are an inconvenience.

In which case, why use the word 'justice' at all, if you're actually talking about something else? Does it make sense to call an act done by someone or something 'justice', then turn around and say 'oh no, it's not our human justice, it's beyond the justice we understand'?
I don't see how that makes sense. If anything, I'd call it pure misdirection.

We have human rulers that do that now. Would you prefer that kind of ruler?

Would I want human rulers who would drop a law, if doing so results in an immediate benefit to most, if not all of, humanity, a law that by the way demands the sacrificial death of someone to accomplish something that quite clearly can be accomplished without the law?
I'd have to answer yes to that question.

How would you like it if justice was hit and miss. Someone killed your neighbor's wife. Do you think, 'meh they didn't hurt me so I don't care if that man gets justice or not'.

Is eating a forbidden fruit tantamount to killing my neighbour's wife?

Besides, justice is 'hit and miss' all the time. Human civilisation doesn't collapse when a judge let's a first-time offender off with a suspended sentence and a warning.

Plus your fear of death is astounding.

I'd honestly like to know where you picked that up from, in what I replied to you. I really am astounded that you somehow picked that up, which is false by the way. I'm not afraid of death. Can you tell me when and where I might have possibly indicated or inferred to a fear of death?

Like Jesus is still dead. Gone forever. He wasn't even dead a week

Which makes light of the 'sacrifice' he supposedly did. It's like someone taking a bullet for me in an online shooter game, then respawning a few moments later. Like...great, that bullet would have killed my character, but it wasn't any great inconvenience for Jesus.

You all seem to think that death is the ultimate force in the universe.

I don't know if I'd use the word 'force' exactly, but given how literally every piece of evidence we have points to everything ending in one way or another...yeah.

Jesus knew all of this was temporary.

So why call what he did a sacrifice? When I payed for my sister's braces some years back, that was a sacrifice on my part. I'm never going to see that money again. However, I could not call what I did a sacrifice if I told my sister it was actually a loan, and I expect her to pay it back...with interest.

But your fear of death is way overrated. This is from a lack of faith, so really it's to be expected.

Wow, so those who have faith somehow do not fear death...I would double dog dare you to show us this, but I wouldn't be surprised if that violates forum guidelines.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:21 pm

[Replying to post 67 by 2timothy316]

[center]

God morality vs Human morality[/center]

2timothy316 wrote:
The point that you ignore is that there is a justice beyond human justice.

So, when you are evaluating God's actions.. this father's actions, you can't compare it to HUMAN actions, or a HUMAN father's actions.

Then DON'T.
You just said they aren't the SAME.

God's morality isn't the same as human morality.. so.. you can't judge God at all.
Only people who think that their moral system is good enough to evaluate actions can do that kind of thing. You cannot.

You have to just accept whatever God does.
Sorry.

You quite literally do not know what God's morality is.
Good or bad.. you can't evaluate it.

We can.
So we do.

You just say hoop hoop hooray for god... as the god allows his son to DIE.
Disgusting action for a father.

I'm talking about a HUMAN father.. not your god of course, when your GOD does something disgusting like that.. it's all good, yo.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm

Blastcat wrote:
If I also was an all powerful father.. I'd think up another way... I'd save all those millions AND my kids.

Ok lets hear this wise and powerful solution. One thing you can't do as an all powerful being and that is force someone to love you.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 68 by Blastcat]

Here we go again with 50 first dates again.

[Replying to post 62 by Blastcat]

"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

There is your confirmation.

viewtopic.php?p=854942#854942

So it's a game of pass the parcel and Simon Says? That to me doesn't indicate love, it indicates to me a recognition of servitude. Here, give me all the money in your wallet, surrender it to me, and I'll give it right back to you. Once that happens, that's how you can say why I love you.
Wait...why does God need Jesus to surrender his life and give it back to him? To demonstrate his love? I demonstrate my love to my family and others, and it might shock you how many of them have died in the act of demonstrating it.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:27 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Blastcat wrote:
If I also was an all powerful father.. I'd think up another way... I'd save all those millions AND my kids.
Ok lets hear this wise and powerful solution. One thing you can't do as an all powerful being and that is force someone to love you.

Simple. Forgive the children. Waive the penalty. Do not demand that someone has to die in order to save others.
It really is quite that simple.

I await with bated breath your explanation of how God cannot or will not do the above, while still somehow being good/kind/loving/merciful/compassionate, etc.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:31 pm

rikuoamero wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 68 by Blastcat]

Here we go again with 50 first dates again.

[Replying to post 62 by Blastcat]

"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

There is your confirmation.

viewtopic.php?p=854942#854942
So it's a game of pass the parcel and Simon Says? That to me doesn't indicate love, it indicates to me a recognition of servitude. Here, give me all the money in your wallet, surrender it to me, and I'll give it right back to you. Once that happens, that's how you can say why I love you.
Wait...why does God need Jesus to surrender his life and give it back to him? To demonstrate his love? I demonstrate my love to my family and others, and it might shock you how many of them have died in the act of demonstrating it.

So what you are saying is that Jesus really didn't care for his Father's justice either. Jesus didn't care what happened to humans or if his Father had the right to rule. You're saying Jesus didn't care for any of that?

Are you aware God owes us nothing and Jesus owes us nothing? He had every right to just wipe out A&E and be done with it. God loved His First Son way before humans came along.

If someone came to me and asked me to give them the money in my wallet so that they could repay an innocent person's debt, yeah I'd have no problem with that.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:35 pm

[Replying to post 75 by 2timothy316]

So what you are saying is that Jesus really didn't didn't care for his Father justice either. Jesus didn't care what happened to humans or if his Father had the right to rule. You're saying Jesus did care for none of that?

I don't know what was in Jesus's head (if anything), I am commenting on what the actions and rhetoric (supposedly) done by Jesus indicate to me.

Are you aware God owes us nothing and Jesus owes us nothing? He had every right to just wipe out A&E and be done with it.

In which case, he would not be kind/merciful/compassionate, etc. That would be treating humanity like I treat my characters in The Sims video games.
All you're doing here is espousing might makes right.
What about responsibility? Rights and responsibilities are two sides of the same coin. You do not apparently even think about the responsibilities God has to Adam and Eve.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:48 pm

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 75 by 2timothy316]

So what you are saying is that Jesus really didn't didn't care for his Father justice either. Jesus didn't care what happened to humans or if his Father had the right to rule. You're saying Jesus did care for none of that?
I don't know what was in Jesus's head (if anything), I am commenting on what the actions and rhetoric (supposedly) done by Jesus indicate to me.

Ah this is because you don't study the Bible. It can tell you what Jesus thought of his Father and mankind.

Proverbs chapter 8 speaks of how Jesus rejoiced at being at his Father's side and that he "was especially fond of the sons of men."

So now you know what was in Jesus' head. It's important to know what Jesus' thoughts were. Otherwise one might think as you do.

Are you aware God owes us nothing and Jesus owes us nothing? He had every right to just wipe out A&E and be done with it.
In which case, he would not be kind/merciful/compassionate, etc. That would be treating humanity like I treat my characters in The Sims video games.
All you're doing here is espousing might makes right.
What about responsibility? Rights and responsibilities are two sides of the same coin. You do not apparently even think about the responsibilities God has to Adam and Eve.

YES! What about responsibility? And you don't think about the responsibilities they had to God or even your own to God. So I completely understand why you think the way you do. Where's the kindness and compassion toward God? Selfishness...that's this world's driving force. That's truly disgusting. Think they are owed something just for living.

Even the world is trying to run itself that way and it's not working. Like a child telling it's mother, 'I didn't ask to be brought into this world, so you owe me!' Childish reasoning...seeing life as a burden and not a gift.

Do you not enjoy life?

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:09 pm

[Replying to post 77 by 2timothy316]

Ah this is because you don't study the Bible.

Looks down to his feet, sees two copies of the Bible. Looks back up at computer screen, where biblehub and biblegateway are bookmarked

I'm sorry but how is this not something you pulled completely out of a certain orifice?

It can tell you what Jesus thought of his Father and mankind.

The Bible tells me what various anonymous authors (other than Paul) thought what Jesus said, did or thought. Not anything from Jesus himself. It may astonish you to learn that Jesus Christ himself, the man behind your religion, did not pen so much as a single page.
If I read a biography of JFK, I am reading what that author thinks about JFK, not what JFK himself thinks.

So now you know what was in Jesus' head. It's important to know what Jesus' thoughts were. Otherwise one might think as you do.

You don't know what was in Jesus's head. Please do not pretend to know. All you have to go on is what the Bible says, and even taking the Bible authoritatively as required by the rules of this sub-forum doesn't indicate what Jesus himself thought. Only what the authors of the various books of the Bible thought about Jesus, what they recorded him as saying.

Where's the kindness and compassion toward God?

How about my not believing that the Bible accurately represents the 'real' God, if he actually exists? Wouldn't you be thrilled if your friends say "I don't believe this book that says 2timothy316 is a tyrannical overlord, there's got to be a mistake somewhere"?

So I completely understand why you think the way you do.

No you do not. Twice now you have revealed you believe falsehoods about myself. You said I have a fear of death (I do not) and you said I do not study the Bible (I do).

Please explain how this claim to understanding my mode of thought stands when you make up stuff about me?

Like a child telling it's mother, 'I didn't ask to be brought into this world, so you owe me!' Childish reasoning...seeing life as a burden and not a gift.

The mother (assuming she was not raped) presumably wilfully chose to bear the child, so she has a responsibility to care for it. Not demand that it give to her something that she gives back, in a demonstration of obedience.
Your parent analogy falls apart because earlier you said God could have chosen to wipe out Adam and Eve.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:13 pm

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 77 by 2timothy316]

Ah this is because you don't study the Bible.
Looks down to his feet, sees two copies of the Bible. Looks back up at computer screen, where biblehub and biblegateway are bookmarked

I'm sorry but how is this not something you pulled completely out of a certain orifice?

You may read it but you don't study it otherwise you would have known how Jesus felt about his Father and mankind. I didn't use bookmarks and I don't have a Bible in even near me. If one doesn't study the Bible then books at your feet mean nothing. They might as we be something to prop your feet on.