Jehovah's Witnesses...

[Elijah John]

This question is specifically for Jehovah's Witnesses, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

As an organization who understands and appreciates the name of God, Father Jehovah, why regard Paul at all? Someone who places Jesus name above all, even above the name of Father Jehovah?

The Watchtower Society proclaims the name of the LORD Jehovah, Paul? Never. Unless I am missing something.

He seems to equate "the Lord" with "Christ", not YHVH.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Phillippians 2.9

For debate...has Paul put Jesus name above every other name including YHVH's?

If it was God and not Paul who did this, where does YHVH say He would ever do this, putting the Messiah's name above His own?

If not, why doesn't Paul proclaim YHVH's name, only Jesus?

If Paul has put Jesus name above all, why should anyone who loves YHVH consider Paul's writings "Sacred Scripture"?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 43 by Elijah John]

No, no other translation dos so, simply because there is no "Jehovah" in the NT. The NWT is a corrupt translation, no doubt about it.

Agreed.

The context of Romans 10:13 makes it clear that the “Lord� referred to in this verse is the Lord Jesus Christ. However, this verse is a quotation from Joel 2:32 in the Old Testament, and in Joel the “Lord� is Yahweh. So either the Lord Jesus IS the LORD YHWH, or in OT times we were to call on YHWH but since Christ in NT times we are to call upon the Messiah, a change of responsibility, rather than indicating a single identity.

[Sword007]

Sword007 posted:

The Scriptures tells us there is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved, except by the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

QUESTION: So are you telling us that scripture says there are only Christians in heaven?
Or is scripture in error on this point?

Jesus Christ told us how to be born again. He said unless we are born again, we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also said: "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except by ME. He never said there was any other way.

[Elijah John]

Sword007 posted:

The Scriptures tells us there is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved, except by the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

QUESTION: So are you telling us that scripture says there are only Christians in heaven?
Or is scripture in error on this point?

Jesus Christ told us how to be born again. He said unless we are born again, we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also said: "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except by ME. He never said there was any other way.

Is this actually what Scripture says? That Jesus is the only way? Yes, in John, the Evangelist puts those words on Jesus lips.

But that contradicts the Hebrew Bible "Old" Testament, such as Genesis 15.6:

he believed in Jehovah and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

Simply believing in Jehovah, is enough, according to Scripture.

No other name but Jesus for salvation? Read the Psalms in a version that honors the name of God, YHVH. (LORD = Yahweh, Jehovah, Y'hovah). There is salvation in the Name of the Father.

People can go directly to YHVH, so Jews and others too can be saved without "believing in Jesus".

[Sword007]

Sword007 posted:

The Scriptures tells us there is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved, except by the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

QUESTION: So are you telling us that scripture says there are only Christians in heaven?
Or is scripture in error on this point?

T

Jesus Christ told us how to be born again. He said unless we are born again, we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also said: "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except by ME. He never said there was any other way.

Is this actually what Scripture says? That Jesus is the only way? Yes, in John, the Evangelist puts those words on Jesus lips.

But that contradicts the Hebrew Bible "Old" Testament, such as Genesis 15.6:

he believed in Jehovah and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

Simply believing in Jehovah, is enough, according to Scripture.

No other name but Jesus for salvation? Read the Psalms in a version that honors the name of God, YHVH. (LORD = Yahweh, Jehovah, Y'hovah). There is salvation in the Name of the Father.

People can go directly to YHVH, so Jews and others too can be saved without "believing in Jesus".

There is no way anyone can be saved without believing in Jesus Christ. Its His shed blood alone that forgives/remits sins. Jesus said: "unless you believe I AM he, you will die in your sins. Jews (or anyone else) who reject Christ as Messiah/Savior, cannot be saved. Salvation requires faith. We must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord.
The Jews are desperate to have a new Temple built because they have not been forgiven of their sins. They want to go back to sacrificing animals because they know only blood covers sins.

[Elijah John]

Sword007 posted:

The Scriptures tells us there is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved, except by the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

QUESTION: So are you telling us that scripture says there are only Christians in heaven?
Or is scripture in error on this point?

T

Jesus Christ told us how to be born again. He said unless we are born again, we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Jesus also said: "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except by ME. He never said there was any other way.

Is this actually what Scripture says? That Jesus is the only way? Yes, in John, the Evangelist puts those words on Jesus lips.

But that contradicts the Hebrew Bible "Old" Testament, such as Genesis 15.6:

he believed in Jehovah and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

Simply believing in Jehovah, is enough, according to Scripture.

No other name but Jesus for salvation? Read the Psalms in a version that honors the name of God, YHVH. (LORD = Yahweh, Jehovah, Y'hovah). There is salvation in the Name of the Father.

People can go directly to YHVH, so Jews and others too can be saved without "believing in Jesus".

There is no way anyone can be saved without believing in Jesus Christ. Its His shed blood alone that forgives/remits sins. Jesus said: "unless you believe I AM he, you will die in your sins. Jews (or anyone else) who reject Christ as Messiah/Savior, cannot be saved. Salvation requires faith. We must believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord.
The Jews are desperate to have a new Temple built because they have not been forgiven of their sins. They want to go back to sacrificing animals because they know only blood covers sins.

That is not true. Even Jesus preached non-bloody forgiveness. Where's the mention of blood in the Lord's prayer? Or the Beattitude? Or the parables? Yet there is forgiveness preached and taught in all of those.

Regarding Jews, ever since the exiles and the destruction of the Temple, (and arguably before) they have turned to the prophets and emphasized simple repentance as the means to forgiveness, not blood.

John the Baptist performed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Outside of Temple authority, no blood involved.

And besides, only a small minority of Jews want to return to animal sacrifice, or believe in it's necessity.

Jesus himself overturned the tables, and set doves free from their cages, proclaiming "my Father's house shall be a house of prayer...!"

Let me ask you this, what does the supposed need for blood say to you about the Father? In the blood atonement/appeasement paradigm, isn't the "Son" the only hero?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 54 by Sword007]

Well, that is, of course, the traditional take on the matter. However, I find it too much into what's called Christian Imperialism, the notion that Christianity is the only right religion and that everyone else is all wrong and a lost soul. Such Imperialism collapses faith into intellectual ascent to dogma. It really doesn't matter how you live, just what doctrines you ascribe to, as far as God is concerned. It undercuts God's love for all persons, not just Bible-believing fundamentalist Christians. It overlooks the fact that Jesus Christ cannot be good news to everyone, not after the cruel way the church has responded to many persons of other cultures. It overlooks that we need different strokes for different folks. No one path will work for everyone. hence, there is one loving God, many paths to God.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 54 by Sword007]

Well, that is, of course, the traditional take on the matter. However, I find it too much into what's called Christian Imperialism, the notion that Christianity is the only right religion and that everyone else is all wrong and a lost soul. Such Imperialism collapses faith into intellectual ascent to dogma. It really doesn't matter how you live, just what doctrines you ascribe to, as far as God is concerned. It undercuts God's love for all persons, not just Bible-believing fundamentalist Christians. It overlooks the fact that Jesus Christ cannot be good news to everyone, not after the cruel way the church has responded to many persons of other cultures. It overlooks that we need different strokes for different folks. No one path will work for everyone. hence, there is one loving God, many paths to God.

I wonder sometimes if John 14.6 has caused more damage, more insularity, more Christian triumphalism and more willful ignorance than any other verse in the Bible.

After all, if we have the "only way" why learn about other paths and religions? Except of course, in order to refute them.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 57 by Elijah John]

I have no doubt that it has. There are, of course, alternative interpretations of the passage. But I have no doubt it has led to the destructive idea that only Christians are loved and saved by God,

[Sword007]

That is not true. Even Jesus preached non-bloody forgiveness. Where's the mention of blood in the Lord's prayer? Or the Beattitude? Or the parables? Yet there is forgiveness preached and taught in all of those.

Regarding Jews, ever since the exiles and the destruction of the Temple, (and arguably before) they have turned to the prophets and emphasized simple repentance as the means to forgiveness, not blood.

John the Baptist performed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Outside of Temple authority, no blood involved.

And besides, only a small minority of Jews want to return to animal sacrifice, or believe in it's necessity.

Jesus himself overturned the tables, and set doves free from their cages, proclaiming "my Father's house shall be a house of prayer...!"

Let me ask you this, what does the supposed need for blood say to you about the Father? In the blood atonement/appeasement paradigm, isn't the "Son" the only hero?

The only non bloody forgiveness Jesus taught was the forgiving of one another. That is something totally different.

[Sword007]

The only non bloody forgiveness Jesus taught was the forgiving of one another.