How is just that God punishes an innocent 3rd party for your

[Wootah]

Q: How is just that God punishes an innocent 3rd party for your sins?

A: This is manifestly unjust and an insurmountable problem for religions that believe Jesus died for our sins but Jesus is not God.

Clearly God would not be so unjust and therefore God is Jesus, man in human form.

You know as well God didn't have to do it. Justice was satisfied by our punishment. God did it out of love and mercy. It's outrageous that God would care so much for us and sacrifice so much by chosing to live as a man. My response is awe and gratitude.

[Justin108]

IF these people were also created as eternal, that is, with a never ending living self awareness and therefore can't be annihilated, then banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity even if it feels like a lake of fire.

So it's just a coincidence that it feels like a lake of fire? Couldn't God maybe just put these people to sleep for eternity? Why does he have to make them suffer?

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 2 by Justin108]

What you're missing is that God didn't have to do anything. He remains good, righteous and holy regardless of our fate because we are justly being punished.

On that premise the coming of Jesus was a volitional act and if so it is a merciful one.

I get that he didn't have to do anything. My question is why did he choose to do this? How is the crucifixion any different from a parent whipping himself because of their children's bad behavior?

Parents whipping themselves ....

I was watching a movie the other day and the main character was involved in a horrible car crash and while they were lying in hospital in agony the father turned up. And he simply whispered that he would give anything to trade places with his child.

Most parents would if they could whip themselves if it would spare their child.

I'm not getting this through to you... what purpose did Jesus' sacrifice serve? Whatever God achieved by sacrificing himself/Jesus could have been achieved by not sacrificing himself/Jesus. So God sacrificing himself/Jesus is needless self mutilation. It serves no purpose.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

Some Christians, including Adventists, believe Christians go to be with God when they leave this world; that sinners have 'soul death' [not sure that is the term they'd use]; that they simply cease to exist; that everlasting agony is not something a loving God would inflict.

[ttruscott]

IF these people were also created as eternal, that is, with a never ending living self awareness and therefore can't be annihilated, then banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity even if it feels like a lake of fire.

So it's just a coincidence that it feels like a lake of fire? Couldn't God maybe just put these people to sleep for eternity? Why does he have to make them suffer?

HE obviously does NOT MAKE them suffer when their fate was in their own hands and though in hindsight it was a mistake, they did indeed choose to go to hell rather than ever take the chance to be married to YHWH in heaven...

As to why they don't 'sleep'...I don't know even though I have no trouble contending for the idea that if HE did it one way, it was the perfect way and if HE did not do something I might feel was better, there was probably a very good reason not to do it that way.

Perhaps it is found in the fact that only our body sleeps and our spirits never sleep as in, spirits can't sleep, then they are stuck with an eternal consciousness. I don't think angels sleep for instance...

[ttruscott]

I'm not getting this through to you... what purpose did Jesus' sacrifice serve? Whatever God achieved by sacrificing himself/Jesus could have been achieved by not sacrificing himself/Jesus. So God sacrificing himself/Jesus is needless self mutilation. It serves no purpose.

"Whatever God achieved by sacrificing himself/Jesus could have been achieved by not sacrificing himself/Jesus" is a didactic statement that must be corroborated by evidence, withdrawn or admitted as your own idea. Since you don't believe in any of this, I doubt you have any evidence and are just telling us your own opinion from your own imagination.

His sacrifice secured an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12.
His sacrifice was the chastisement that brought us peace, [for by] his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:12
His sacrifice of death destroyed the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil. Hebrews 2:14.

I'm sure you can find your own verses with an appropriate google search.

[ttruscott]

IF these people were also created as eternal, that is, with a never ending living self awareness and therefore can't be annihilated, then banishment to the outer darkness is an absolute necessity even if it feels like a lake of fire.

So it's just a coincidence that it feels like a lake of fire? Couldn't God maybe just put these people to sleep for eternity? Why does he have to make them suffer?

HE obviously does NOT MAKE them suffer when their fate was in their own hands and though in hindsight it was a mistake, they did indeed choose to go to hell than ever take the chance to be married to YHWH in heaven...

As to why they don't 'sleep'...I don't know even though I have no trouble contending for the idea the if HE did it one way, it was the perfect way and if HE did not do something I might feel was better, there was probably a very good reason not to do it that way.

Perhaps it is found in the fact that only our body sleeps and our spirits never sleep as in, spirits can't sleep, then they are stuck with an eternal consciousness. I don't think angels sleep for instance...

[Danmark]

HE obviously does NOT MAKE them suffer when their fate was in their own hands and though in hindsight it was a mistake, they did indeed choose to go to hell than ever take the chance to be married to YHWH in heaven...

Even with your scenario, God obviously 'MAKES' them suffer because God set up this ridiculous system in the first place knowing they would fail, that "all would sin and fall short of the glory of God." God knew this would happen before the Earth was created, according to the omniscience theory.

[ttruscott]

HE obviously does NOT MAKE them suffer when their fate was in their own hands and though in hindsight it was a mistake, they did indeed choose to go to hell than ever take the chance to be married to YHWH in heaven...

Even with your scenario, God obviously 'MAKES' them suffer because God set up this ridiculous system in the first place knowing they would fail,

...this is your ridiculous system that I contend against since I do not believe that HE knew anyone would fail... The definition of omniscience that says HE did know before their creation who would end in hell yet created them anyway I consider a blasphemy, erroneously accepted because the GOD who is love would never create them just to go to hell.

So attack the false doctrine and I'm your huckleberry but there is no need to attack GOD.

that "all would sin and fall short of the glory of God." God knew this would happen before the Earth was created, according to the omniscience theory.

This definition of omniscience is wrongly accepted. My evidence is the Bible that says HE is love and also that love is both patient and kind. It is just not loving to create someone just to go to hell when HE has no need for evil at all and no need for anyone to be in hell as it is written: Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

[Justin108]

So it's just a coincidence that it feels like a lake of fire? Couldn't God maybe just put these people to sleep for eternity? Why does he have to make them suffer?

HE obviously does NOT MAKE them suffer when their fate was in their own hands

If the mafia says "pay us money or we will burn down your business", is the fate of the business owner in their own hands? Would it be the business owner's fault if they burned down the business? Or would it be the mafia's fault?

and though in hindsight it was a mistake, they did indeed choose to go to hell

Did they literally choose to go to hell in the sense that they said "I choose hell"? Or did they choose hell in the sense that they did not choose God? Because the latter is not choosing hell. Choosing not-A is not the same as choosing B.

Perhaps it is found in the fact that only our body sleeps and our spirits never sleep

Surely it is possible for an omnipotent God to make a spirit sleep even if spirits do not normally sleep. If God can raise people from the dead, surely he can make spirits sleep

as in, spirits can't sleep, then they are stuck with an eternal consciousness.

But humans can sleep. Aren't humans simply spirits with bodies?

[Bust Nak]

Q: How is just that God punishes an innocent 3rd party for your sins?

A: This is manifestly unjust and an insurmountable problem for religions that believe Jesus died for our sins but Jesus is not God.

I don't see how equating Jesus with God helps here. How is just that God punishes an innocent 1st party for your sins?

It's indeed outrageous that God would care so much for us and sacrifice so much by chosing to live as a man. My response is that it cannot possibly be true.