Jesus' plan of salvation.

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Elijah John
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Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?� 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?� 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.� 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.�
Luke 10.25-28

And this.

Matthew 19.17b
17............... but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.�
Matthew 7.21
"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. ...
And what is the will of our Heavenly Father? Is it not expressed in the "Law and the Prophets"?

And what is the "Law and the Prophets"?

According to Jesus, simply this:
36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.�
Or, to simplify even further:

Matthew 7.12
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


Notice the following.

The Synoptic Jesus does not mention the necessity of being "bloodwashed", or belief in the blood in order to be saved.

Paul does.

The Synpoptic Jesus celebrates the Law as a way to salvation.

Paul, by contrast, considers those who attempt to follow the Law to salvation, accursed.

The Synoptic Jesus does not claim to be the "only way" to God in these passages. The Johannine Jesus does.

For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as does the Jesus of the Synoptics?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Checkpoint
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #2

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as the Jesus of the Synoptics?
This question assumes that what it says is settled truth.

Opinion is divided on what it states and assumes.

Elijah John
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as the Jesus of the Synoptics?
This question assumes that what it says is settled truth.

Opinion is divided on what it states and assumes.
Let's explore it then. Where do John or Paul incorporate what the Synoptic Jesus says about the way of salvation in their "plans of salvation"?

Namely, entering life by "keeping the Commandments" and doing the will of God by loving God and neighbor.

Notice in those Synoptic passages, Jesus says nothing about "believing in" himself, or in the "atoning merits" of his impending martyrdom in order to be saved.

But rather, only of the love of God and neighbor.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Checkpoint
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #4

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as the Jesus of the Synoptics?
This question assumes that what it says is settled truth.

Opinion is divided on what it states and assumes.
Let's explore it then. Where do John or Paul incorporate what the Synoptic Jesus says about the way of salvation in their "plans of salvation"?

Namely, entering life by "keeping the Commandments" and doing the will of God by loving God and neighbor.

Notice in those Synoptic passages, Jesus says nothing about "believing in" himself, or in the "atoning merits" of his impending martyrdom in order to be saved.

But rather, only of the love of God and neighbor.
Yes, let's.

Note, however, I do not see "the Synoptic Jesus" as per your OP, and I do not read "those Synoptic passages" as you do.

Context is key.

More posts pending.

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Wootah
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?� 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?� 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.� 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.�
Are you doing that EJ? Do you expect to be judged by God and pass that standard?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

Elijah John
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
For debate...Why don't John and Paul teach the same "plan of salvation" as the Jesus of the Synoptics?
This question assumes that what it says is settled truth.

Opinion is divided on what it states and assumes.
Let's explore it then. Where do John or Paul incorporate what the Synoptic Jesus says about the way of salvation in their "plans of salvation"?

Namely, entering life by "keeping the Commandments" and doing the will of God by loving God and neighbor.

Notice in those Synoptic passages, Jesus says nothing about "believing in" himself, or in the "atoning merits" of his impending martyrdom in order to be saved.

But rather, only of the love of God and neighbor.
Yes, let's.

Note, however, I do not see "the Synoptic Jesus" as per your OP, and I do not read "those Synoptic passages" as you do.

Context is key.

More posts pending.
So, you are seeing the Synoptic Jesus with a Johnanine/Pauline lens? That is your context?

My perspective is just the opposite. My "OT" and Synpoptic lens compels me to view their blood theology with skepticism.

So when you get back to us, please incorporate Jesus Synoptic teachings on salvation into John and Paul's salvation tract. I would be very interested to see how this is accomplished.

Synoptic teachings such as simple repentance (the Parables), forgiving others as conditions for forgiveness (the Lord's prayer) and keeping the Commandments from the heart.

I don't see where these are taught by John or Paul. But if you do, please...I am willing to be corrected.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #7

Post by Elijah John »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?� 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?� 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.� 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.�
Are you doing that EJ? Do you expect to be judged by God and pass that standard?
Is that a minimum standard Wootah, or is that an ideal which we should embrace?

If we are less than perfect, Jesus and Ezekiel provide the remedy. "Forgive us as we forgive others" (says Jesus).

"If the sinner repents, and forsakes his sinful ways, he shall not die, but live."
(Paraphrase from Ezekiel).

Remember too, the parable in Luke about the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus has Abraham telling the rich man in hell that listening to Moses and the Prophets is enough to avoid that horrendous fate.

Someone rising from the dead would be futile in this case, to warn the rich man's siblings.

Ironic, considering who was telling the Parable.

Also, grace and mercy are in the OT/"Hebrew Bible...consider Psalm 103.10-14:
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins, Nor rewarded us after our iniquities.

11For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is his lovingkindness toward them that fear him.

12As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

13Like as a father pitieth his children, So Jehovah pitieth them that fear him.

14For he knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust.
So, perfection not required. No mention here of the impending blood-payment of the Messiah either, as a condition for that grace.

And this:

Genesis 15.6
And he believed in YHVH, and he counted it to him for righteousness.
So it seems righteousness is imputed for simply believing in YHVH. No conditional imputation based on one's belief in blood atonement.

And not just for Abraham, for :
EVERYONE who calls upon the name of YHVH will be saved.
So Paul's vicarious atonement theology is superfluous and redundant.

As demonstrated, grace and mercy was to be found in the teachings of the OT Prophets, and Jesus himself. Jesus too taught the truth of this without appeal to the merits of his impending crucifixion.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Wootah
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #8

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]

It sounds like an answer to the question: Teacher what should I do to have eternal life.

Forgetting what we might want it to mean - at a plain reading do you think you meet that standard?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #9

Post by WeSee »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The Synoptic Jesus does not claim to be the "only way" to God in these passages. The Johannine Jesus does.
I found this curious. Johannine Jesus. What do you have in mind here? Please be sure to address "Jesus...claim to be... the 'only way' to God".

Elijah John
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Re: Jesus' plan of salvation.

Post #10

Post by Elijah John »

WeSee wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The Synoptic Jesus does not claim to be the "only way" to God in these passages. The Johannine Jesus does.
I found this curious. Johannine Jesus. What do you have in mind here? Please be sure to address "Jesus...claim to be... the 'only way' to God".
The Jesus as presented in the Gospel of John differs from the Jesus presented in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

For example, in the Synoptics Jesus teaches only to invoke the Father's name in prayer. In John, he teaches his disciples to pray in Jesus name.

In the Synoptics, Jesus speaks in parables, and short maxims. In John, long, sometimes rambling theologically tinged discourses. So even the speech patterns are different.

In the Synoptics, Jesus focus is on the Kingdom of God, in John, the Kingdom is rarely, if ever, mentioned.

In the Synoptics, Jesus focus is on glorifying the Father, in John, he grasps for glory for himself as well.

In John, Jesus proclaims that he is the only way to the Father. How did Matthew, Mark and Luke miss this, that is if indeed the real, historical Jesus ever made this claim.

It's almost as though the Synoptic writers and John are writing about two different people.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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