JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[onewithhim]

I propose this thread has gone on too long and lacks the relevant parameters. I have started another thread where linguistics plays a more important role.
\

The chief difference is that names cannot be used without clear reference to an ancient text. Jehovah is a latin derivation. You won't find a Hebrew term that sounds like the English sounds J.H.O.V.A.H.

So the thread requires we drop that name.

Anyhow. Anyone who actually cares about linguistics can jump over there.

"DROP THE NAME 'JEHOVAH'"??? LOL! What do you propose that the KJV committee should have put in its place in the four places that it says "Jehovah"?

Exodus 6:3
Psalm 83:18
Isaiah 12:2
Isaiah 26:4

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

Jesus was a human being so he had to pray for his difficulties, in trials and tribulations to One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he used to address as "Father", obviously Jesus himself could not be his own father. YHVH was, therefore, a separate entity, undoubtedly. Right, please?
Regards

Thank you for your answer that Jesus was not YHWH. I wonder what you mean by saying that Jesus referred to YHWH metaphorically as "Father."

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 250 by onewithhim]

"DROP THE NAME 'JEHOVAH'"??? LOL! What do you propose that the KJV committee should have put in its place in the four places that it says "Jehovah"?

For this forum, I don't really care about the KJV or any English translation when the argument is linguistic. Either use the actual Hebrew and Greek characters, or transliterate: Yahweh, Elohim, Kurios, theos etc.

Not sure why this is an LOL request; unless of course your entire position depends on a language in which the Bible was not written, and on a rather old version of that language?

[liamconnor]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

Which English translation are you using here as the authoritative text? And why?

Where in these passages do the terms (I transliterate) Yahweh (Hebrew) and Pater (Greek) appear together? They don't. There is zero Hebrew in the N.T.

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

Where in the N.T. is the Hebrew Yahweh linguistically linked with the Greek Pater? They aren't.

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

This is an actual linguistic argument, so kudos. However, Paul and John clearly apply the Name YHWH to Jesus.

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

Yes, as Father and Son speak to each other: Mr. Johnson spoke to Mr. Johnson. How is this possible? Because one is the son of the other. You have hypostatized names so that they are substances. They aren't. YHWH is just a name applied to an entity which represents facets of that entity. Think of the fact that you could legally change your name tomorrow and still be the same person; also think of the fact that probably at least one other individual out there has your same name, and yet you are two different people.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 253 by liamconnor]

According to Luke, Jesus read directly from a scroll of Isaiah 61:1; how how would that scripture have read in the original language? Is the Divine Name (YHWH) in the text of the scripture he (Jesus) quoted?

Jesus said to him: ““Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.� - NWT

Have your instructors yet introduced you to the fact that there is evidence that the original greek writers used the Divine Name in their original texts? Or am I here introducting you to entirely new information?



The removal of the Tetragrammaton
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 272#822272

[JehovahsWitness]

Where in these passages do the terms (I transliterate) Yahweh (Hebrew) and Pater (Greek) appear together? They don't. There is zero Hebrew in the N.T.

Onewithhim is using critical thinking skills. This involves taking information and coming to logical conclusions based on the explicit and implicit reading of texts.

Critical thinking skills would involve the ability to self generate relevant questions such as when Jesus, as a Jew, used the terms God and Father who would he be speaking about?*

* Please note, I self generated the above question in my brain, the above question will not be found in one of your exercise books.

[JehovahsWitness]

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

Yes, as Father and Son speak to each other: Mr. Johnson spoke to Mr. Johnson. How is this possible? Because one is the son of the other. You have hypostatized names so that they are substances. They aren't. YHWH is just a name applied to an entity which represents facets of that entity.

Firstly, If a father speaks to his son he is NOT speaking to himself. Further, I am not interested in trinitarian bias or childhood indoctrination regurgitated in illogical verbage about part of an entity speaking to the entirety of the entity, so let's put this simply: Does the Tetragrammaton appear in the original language source text of Psalsm 110:1? Yes or No? if so, does it appear once or twice? If once does it appear as the subject or the object of the verb?

RELATED POSTS

Why do many English Translations have LORD in Captials in many verses?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 821#872821

Did early copies of the Septuguint include the Divine Name or was it replaced by "Kurios"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 814#872814

Is LORD a translation of YHWH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 698#872698

[paarsurrey1]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

Jesus was a human being so he had to pray for his difficulties, in trials and tribulations to One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he used to address as "Father", obviously Jesus himself could not be his own father. YHVH was, therefore, a separate entity, undoubtedly. Right, please?
Regards

Thank you for your answer that Jesus was not YHWH. I wonder what you mean by saying that Jesus referred to YHWH metaphorically as "Father."

I said, "One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he (Jesus) used to address as 'Father' ".

Metaphoric is the word "father" as YHVH as I understand was not a literal and physical father of Jesus. He couldn't be. Right, please?
Regards

"Father"

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 250 by onewithhim]

"DROP THE NAME 'JEHOVAH'"??? LOL! What do you propose that the KJV committee should have put in its place in the four places that it says "Jehovah"?

For this forum, I don't really care about the KJV or any English translation when the argument is linguistic. Either use the actual Hebrew and Greek characters, or transliterate: Yahweh, Elohim, Kurios, theos etc.

Not sure why this is an LOL request; unless of course your entire position depends on a language in which the Bible was not written, and on a rather old version of that language?

Please just answer the simple question: What do you think that the King James translators should have put for God's name at the four places that they allow it? It is a relevant question, especially since millions of people use the King James Version.

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

Jesus was a human being so he had to pray for his difficulties, in trials and tribulations to One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he used to address as "Father", obviously Jesus himself could not be his own father. YHVH was, therefore, a separate entity, undoubtedly. Right, please?
Regards

Thank you for your answer that Jesus was not YHWH. I wonder what you mean by saying that Jesus referred to YHWH metaphorically as "Father."

I said, "One-True-God, whom in a metaphoric sense he (Jesus) used to address as 'Father' ".

Metaphoric is the word "father" as YHVH as I understand was not a literal and physical father of Jesus. He couldn't be. Right, please?
Regards

"Father"

Why couldn't He be? YHVH created the archangel who later became Jesus of Nazareth before anything else was created. Jesus has been around for billions of years, if not trillions or multiple quadrillions of years.

Colossians 1:15