The paradox of Pain and Evil

[liamconnor]

The notion of a good God is incompatible with the world as we experience it: i.e., disease, violence, famine, etc. In other words, if God were as good as the Christians tell us, the world would be infinitely better.

Thus we conclude that there either there is no God or, if there is, it is something indifferent to good and evil.

So then, under this worldview (no God, or an indifferent power), where derives our idea that this world is not as good as it can be? Where in fact derives our standard of goodness by which we reject the notion of a good God?

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Moral goodness is "intention in favor of well-being". There is only the question of the well-being of what.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 2 by FarWanderer]

I am not sure I follow.

However, "moral goodness" was not the main theme of the OP.

The main theme was the impression that the world is not "right" as such. I do not hold diseases to be "morally bankrupt"; but I still retain the impression that disease is "off, unfitting, an alien intruder".

Now a theistic worldview attempts an explanation for that impression. This OP assumes that that worldview is false.

However, the impression remains--after all, one of the strongest attacks against moral theism is the impression that the world is rotten.

So, how do we explain this impression that the world is rotten within a non-theistic worldview?

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 3 by liamconnor]

I see.

We are creatures of being. Naturally, we are in favor of it. So, our sense of 'the good' does not "come from" anywhere; it is a part of what we are.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]


I have already answered this question: I'll repost the link in case you missed it

If there is a God, why does he permit evil [and suffering]?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 277#381277






Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975


FURTHER READING: Why does God Allow Suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/

[rikuoamero]

The notion of a good God is incompatible with the world as we experience it: i.e., disease, violence, famine, etc. In other words, if God were as good as the Christians tell us, the world would be infinitely better.

Thus we conclude that there either there is no God or, if there is, it is something indifferent to good and evil.

So then, under this worldview (no God, or an indifferent power), where derives our idea that this world is not as good as it can be? Where in fact derives our standard of goodness by which we reject the notion of a good God?

By using the claims of the Bible against the theology. Isee stories of God raining down manna and quails to feed the hungry Hebrews.
Okay, the situation today is much worse than that. Who knows how many hundreds of millions of people go hungry or even starve to death in modern times. Where's the mana and quaills?
Also if you are attempting to, in a round about way, say that this world is as good as it can be, what point is there in believing in a heaven that is supposedly better?

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

#QUESTION: If there is a loving god, why does he permit suffering.
God never intended humans to suffer this way, He gave mankind a perfect start but we suffer because our first parents (Adam and Eve) rebelled against God and wanted to "go it alone". Humans were not created to function disconnected from God; just as a computer needs to have a constant source of power, the human body begins to break down and becomes suceptable to sickness and disease if they were to lose that essential connection with him. This is what happened in Eden.

Adam and Eve's rejection of God lead to them sinning and as a result dying. Since we all genetically inherit features from our parents, humans all display the same physical weaknesses and limited lifespan; the genetic code, if you like was damaged, and all humans would in turn inherite that "damage" DNA coding (Romans 5: 12).

This really does not answer the question. If my mother broke her arm before I was born, I would not be born with a broken arm. Are you saying that God who designed DNA so that acquired traits are not inheritable, decided to make the effects of sin inheritable? On the face of it, I would say that would have been a really poor design decision. Why wouldn't he have made every baby innocent and unblemished like Adam and Eve?

# QUESTION: But why did God allow them to take such a suicidal path? Especially as it would affect their unborn children?
Because our fore parents had the RIGHT to do so, regardless of the consequences. To not allow them to reject him would deny them the freedom of self determination. If the car INSISTS on filling its tank with inappropriate fuel, why would people ask "why does the mechanic allow breakdown"

If you were to design a self-replicating self-fueling car, would you design it so that if one generation malfunctions, all subsequent generations must also malfunction? If not, then you would be a better designer than you claim that God is.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you were to design a self-replicating self-fueling car, would you design it so that if one generation malfunctions, all subsequent generations must also malfunction?

That is a given in the expression "self-generating". That which is self replicating can only replicate (reproduce) that which it is. By definition it cannot replicate that which it no longer is; therefore a "damaged" self generating organism will by definition reproduce its damaged self which is effectively what Adam and Eve did*.

They could not pass on perfection because they were no longer perfect.

If my mother broke her arm before I was born, I would not be born with a broken arm.

No, but if your mother contracted or was born with a genetically transmitable disease it would sadly be passed on to her off spring. Adam and Eve became imperfect and that imperfection was passed on through all subsequent générations much like a gene default.


This is the biblical view (see Rom 5:12)


JW


* self generating should not be confused with self correcting/self repairing. Our human bodies can to an extraordinary degree self-heal (repair) but on a genetic level, this does not seem to happen - which is why some scientists are hesitant about modifying human gentic codes.




RELATED POSTS

Are humans being "punished" for Adam's sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280

Why a universe of cause & effect?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 335#381335

[Willum]

[Replying to post 8 by JehovahsWitness]

Yes, but as dumb as the engineers at GM are, cars have been getting better according to corporate goals since cars began.

Are you saying God either has foul goals, is impotent or is less intelligent that GM engineers? That he is helpless to correct imperfection?
What high regard you must have for your God.

[ttruscott]

This really does not answer the question. If my mother broke her arm before I was born, I would not be born with a broken arm. Are you saying that God who designed DNA so that acquired traits are not inheritable, decided to make the effects of sin inheritable? On the face of it, I would say that would have been a really poor design decision. Why wouldn't he have made every baby innocent and unblemished like Adam and Eve?

This is especially poignant given the culmination of our creation, the story of humankind, is the great wedding of HIS elect including the redeemed church made holy and righteous, to GOD HIMSelf. Even without the idea that GOD cannot create anybody as sinful and degraded due to HIS being loving and righteous, there is absolutely NO reason at all for HIM to create HIS Church, HIS future family, as degraded and sinful...there is no reason at all let alone any good reason. HE did not create Adam and Eve that way...why create the rest of us that way? Orthodoxy doesn't make any sense.

And this is why I contend that orthodoxy is wrong, we were not created in Adam's sin at all even if born as sinners. We must have been created as innocent and fell into evil ways by our own free will and were then moved, sown, here to live with the consequences of such a choice, the natural consequences of sin, suffering, degradation and death.