Subjective Morality and God

[liamconnor]

Many here like to point out that morality is subjective. But many like to point out the moral wrongs of the so called god of the bible.


But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Right?

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

It is my personal view that his mass murdering children is wrong. I cannot prove mass murdering children is wrong, though, but I find the idea to be repulsive.

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

Yes. The existence of a god makes no difference to the subjectivity of morality.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

Who is doing that? It is my opinion that the Bible god is immoral.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Right?

Wrong. Yahweh can be denounced if you agree with Richard Dawkins that

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

So what's your opinion on morality, Connor?

[Divine Insight]

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Right?

True. However, the God of the O.T. doesn't allow for subjective morality. The God of the O.T. violates his own standards of morality.

There are problems with the God of the O.T. that you seem to be overlooking. For one thing the God of the O.T. is supposed to be consistent and "trustworthy". Therefore he can't be arbitrary in what he subjectively decides is moral or immoral.

Many Christian theologians have attempted to argue that anything God does is automatically moral simply because God has chosen to do it. However, that is extremely problematic.

This type of theology would work for Zeus because Zeus was not claimed to be absolutely righteous, or even dependable or trustworthy. Therefore Zeus could do anything he so desires at any moment. He would have no absolute moral code that he would need to abide by.

However, the God of the O.T. doesn't have that luxury. The God of the O.T. needs to be both consistent in his morality, as well as objective in terms of his sense of morality needing to be absolute and unchanging.

Therefore the very moment you allow for "subjective morality" the concept of the O.T. God is already invalid.

So the moment a secularist suggests that morality is a human subjective notion, this already denied the existence of the O.T. God.

You can't then try to apply the notion of subjective morality to the O.T. God. It simply doesn't fit in that religious paradigm. You could apply this to a God like Zeus however, but that's a totally different situation.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

Liam...takes non-existent glasses off...I'm going to try to be polite here, mainly so as to not arouse the wrath of the mods, but I find the above statement to be baffling, in that it is highly unlikely that a smart guy like yourself could write it and yet not realise that it only highlights the problem with his own beliefs.

What is it you and people like you like to claim about Bible God? They like to claim that he is or is the source of (or some variation of that phrasing) objective morality. That the reason certain things are OK when God does it are because of this so called 'objective' morality.
However, if Bible God actually is just another form subjective morality...then any and all claims to a superior morality go out the window. You can hardly chastise me and others for having subjective moralities all the while you are here admitting that you have one yourself.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Let me fix that for you, since now you are entertaining the possibility that Bible God is subjective morality.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview (just like me), and yet continue to denounce other groups and actions as being objectively immoral
If there is no objective morality, then not worshipping Bible God cannot be denounced on moral grounds. Bible God would be just another guy with his own opinion as to morality

So care to ponder this liam? Why didn't you realise you were signing the death warrant for your own argument the instant you allowed for the possibility of Bible God being subjective morality?

[Bust Nak]

But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

Because a moral arbiter has ruled that they are wrong.

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

No, that is not possible. It is however possible that there is a generic god, and that morality is subjective.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

Oh, now you tell me. Why didn't you begin with that before I started answering?

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Right?

No. But I was not supposed to answer that because that question wasn't meant for me, right?

[benchwarmer]

Many here like to point out that morality is subjective. But many like to point out the moral wrongs of the so called god of the bible.


But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

What 'many' actually point out is that the morals given by this god are then violated by the same god.

In a sense, the god of the OT is judging himself based on his own morals. Some of us simply like to point this out and call into question the inconsistency.

Now, since I believe morals are subjective I also consider some of the actions (as described in the Bible) of this god immoral. This is a separate issue and not the usual line of attack from me.

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

I'll take these one at a time.

1) Sure, it's possible there is a god.

2) Given the contradictions I don't think it's possible for the god of the Bible (exactly as written) to exist. If a god does exist, it may exhibit some similarity to some of the descriptions in the Bible, but I can't see how it could exhibit all of the descriptions unless this god is somehow schizophrenic or otherwise disconnected with itself from time to time.

3) If a god does exist and it really has created everything including some moral code that will, in the end, be used to 'judge' us then at some level those morals would be objective. The only problem here is that we have no real way of knowing what, exactly, this objective moral code is. Given we can only work with what we can observe, we observe that morals are subjective since they are different from person to person and group to group. TLDR, if a god created an objective moral code, then no, it cannot use subjective morals since it created an objective model.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Right?

Wrong. As I explained initially, I only judge this god's morals based on what its own moral code is supposed to be. i.e. This god says "don't kill" then both kills and asks us to kill. Perhaps this is proof of this gods moral subjectivity? Morals apparently change with the wind if we go by the Bible.

So, there are two issues here:

1) God does not follow His own moral code. Therefore, how can morals be objective? Or perhaps, the Bible is seriously flawed and we really have no idea if some god either exists and/or created some objective moral code we should be following.

2) According to my own (subjective) moral code, I find many of the actions of the god in the Bible to be immoral.

Thus, the god of the Bible is immoral by its own standards and mine.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

If morality is objective, then God cannot be personal. If God is benevolent, if God always chooses the most ethical, moral and beneficial path, then there is no scope for God to have choice. God cannot be partial, God must be impartial.

Here is the irony. Christians insist that objective morality must derive from God, then they describe a God inconsistent with objective morality.

[KenRU]

Many here like to point out that morality is subjective. But many like to point out the moral wrongs of the so called god of the bible.


But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

They are wrong (subjectively) in my opinion.

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

Sure, why not?

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

Who holds a subjective worldview but thinks god is objectively immoral? I don't.

Remove the word Objectively, please. I hold the view that morals are subjective, and I believe the god of the OT to be quite monstrous and immoral (in my subjective opinion). His actions clearly show this, imo.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Sure it can. Just because there is no such thing as objective morality, doesn't mean we can't strive for the best version of it.

The god of the OT certainly doesn't come close to doing this, imo.

[marco]

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible, and that morality is subjective?

Yes, no, and debateable.

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

Regardless of how we derive our morality, we have it and we can judge deeds by what we exercise in our daily struggle. The character invented in the O.T. would be regarded as mainly a villain were he Shakespeare's creation. The authors, lacking Shakespeare's expertise, make him inconsistent: all-powerful but forgetful; knowing how to count hairs on a person's head, but requiring to ask where Adam is hiding; lovingly hateful in asking for a human sacrifice; jealous of non-existent "other gods."

We judge him as vicious by his vicious acts and commands. He sends bears to rip up boys. That's bad. Whether the morality that decrees this as bad reaches us subjectively or objectively doesn't matter. He's as bad as Macbeth but less skilfully portrayed.

[wiploc]

Many here like to point out that morality is subjective.

I am not one of those.

But many like to point out the moral wrongs of the so called god of the bible.

Which is easy to do.

But if morality is subjective, then why are the doings of this god wrong?

Is it that you think morality is somehow inherently objective, that if there is no objective morality then there is no morality at all?

If there were no objective morality, then any immorality would be subjective, and therefore any immorality of the biblical god would be subjective immorality.

Now let me ask you this: Which is better, a subjective morality that forbids rape, or an objective morality that encourages it?

Is it possible that there is a god, that it is the god of the bible,

The biblical gods are shot thru with logical contradictions. So, no, that's not possible.

and that morality is subjective?

There are possible gods that could coexist with subjective morality.

This question is for people who have subscribed to a subjective moral worldview, and yet continue to denounce the god of the O.T. as being objectively immoral.

What if they're denouncing him for being subjectively immoral?

If there is no objective morality, then the god of the o.t. cannot be denounced on moral grounds (other grounds, yes, but not moral grounds).

There, you are implicitly claiming that objective morality is the only morality. But that is, obviously, not the position of those whom you criticize. You are attacking a straw man.

Right?

Wrong.