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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:16 am
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Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reality?

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Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reality?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:23 am
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Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reality?

The Atheists Agnostics though claim to be humanists and reason oriented; yet, excepting a few, generally they are not much reason oriented.
I find myself on the side of Christians to win back the lost souls towards Theism from Atheism or Agnosticism, with the reasons/arguments/rationale given in Quran, which becomes a very achievable goal with the grace of God, if instead of the Jesus of Bible, Jesus of Quran is presented, which is more in conformity with Judaism and Zoroastrianism and other religions also as their revealed books and their Messengers Prophets in origin were truthful.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:57 am
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reality?
The Gospels are much closer temporally to the life and times of Jesus than the Quran. By default this gives them far more historical weight in terms of reliability in reconstructing the life of Jesus. But if you'd like to make a case for why you think the Quran is more reliable historically, I'd be interested in hearing it.

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The Atheists Agnostics though claim to be humanists and reason oriented; yet, excepting a few, generally they are not much reason oriented.
I'm pretty sure they'd say the same about theists.

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I find myself on the side of Christians to win back the lost souls towards Theism from Atheism or Agnosticism, with the reasons/arguments/rationale given in Quran, which becomes a very achievable goal with the grace of God, if instead of the Jesus of Bible, Jesus of Quran is presented, which is more in conformity with Judaism and Zoroastrianism and other religions also as their revealed books and their Messengers Prophets in origin were truthful.

Regards
I think you'll find yourself very much alone here. Possibly with the exception of other Muslims. Even atheist/agnostic and sceptical historical-Jesus scholars primarily work with the documents found in the New Testament.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:41 pm
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> Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reali

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Goose wrote:

The Gospels are much closer temporally to the life and times of Jesus than the Quran. By default this gives them far more historical weight in terms of reliability in reconstructing the life of Jesus. But if you'd like to make a case for why you think the Quran is more reliable historically, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I'm pretty sure they'd say the same about theists.

I think you'll find yourself very much alone here. Possibly with the exception of other Muslims. Even atheist/agnostic and sceptical historical-Jesus scholars primarily work with the documents found in the New Testament.

I do see it as a mistake to the claim of "history" because there is very little history for the New Testament or for Jesus, and history is not the basis of faith or of God.

We could say that Moses knew better than Jesus because Moses (or whoever wrote the old Testament) was closer to those historical times, and it does not work that way.

Jesus came long after Moses but we view Jesus as inspired.

So too the Qur'an came at a later time, but when we view the Qur'an as inspired then the time does not make any difference.

There are people and books today who have far more insight then was available 1000 or 2 or 3000 years ago, and so historical accuracy is never the criteria.

I see this thread title as inaccurate because instead of saying that Jesus of the Gospel is fiction - it is really just the people of Christianity who misunderstand the true Gospel of Jesus in the New Testament.

It is in the end times that the old things get revealed.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:55 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the reality?



It is fairly certain that Jesus of the Quran is a fiction. The Arabic setting of Mary lying under a palm tree, then shaking the tree to get something to eat, giving birth to a boy who is immediately articulate is just plain silly, albeit amusing. Where are the camels?

The dignified, if fabricated NT account of Jesus in a humble setting is better on the ears.

Muhammad just invented the story for Arab listeners. But he did mention he's bigger than Jesus, if younger.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:32 pm
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Re: > Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the r

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JP Cusick wrote:

Goose wrote:

The Gospels are much closer temporally to the life and times of Jesus than the Quran. By default this gives them far more historical weight in terms of reliability in reconstructing the life of Jesus. But if you'd like to make a case for why you think the Quran is more reliable historically, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I'm pretty sure they'd say the same about theists.

I think you'll find yourself very much alone here. Possibly with the exception of other Muslims. Even atheist/agnostic and sceptical historical-Jesus scholars primarily work with the documents found in the New Testament.

I do see it as a mistake to the claim of "history" because there is very little history for the New Testament or for Jesus, and history is not the basis of faith or of God.

We could say that Moses knew better than Jesus because Moses (or whoever wrote the old Testament) was closer to those historical times, and it does not work that way.

Jesus came long after Moses but we view Jesus as inspired.

So too the Qur'an came at a later time, but when we view the Qur'an as inspired then the time does not make any difference.

There are people and books today who have far more insight then was available 1000 or 2 or 3000 years ago, and so historical accuracy is never the criteria.

I see this thread title as inaccurate because instead of saying that Jesus of the Gospel is fiction - it is really just the people of Christianity who misunderstand the true Gospel of Jesus in the New Testament.

It is in the end times that the old things get revealed.


Quote:
it is really just the people of Christianity who misunderstand the true Gospel of Jesus in the New Testament.


I just want elaboration on, what is true Gospel of Jesus in the NT, please.
I mostly agree with the points mentioned by one in one's post.

Regards


Last edited by paarsurrey1 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:37 pm
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(Mary) giving birth to a boy who is immediately articulate


Please quote the verse/s of Quran that mentions it with the verses in the context* for correct understanding.
Anybody, please.

Regards

*some preceding and some proceeding verses.


Last edited by paarsurrey1 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:38 pm
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Re: > Is Jesus of Gospels a fiction, Jesus of Quran the r

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I do see it as a mistake to the claim of "history" because there is very little history for the New Testament or for Jesus, and history is not the basis of faith or of God.
Very little history for Jesus? We have four ancient biographies all written within the first century. I could make a fairly strong case two of them were authored by eyewitnesses and the other two were written by people who knew eyewitnesses. That alone is a significant amount of history by comparison to a number of other ancient figures. Then there are the numerous remaining NT letters from Paul et al. We could further add to the mix letters from Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp not long after the close of the NT. Granted the biographical details of Jesus in these letters are limited but nonetheless represent evidence for Jesus. Then there’s the words from Josephus and Tacitus. All in all we have a rich historical record for Jesus. So why on earth you’d claim we have “very little history” for Jesus is quite beyond me.

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We could say that Moses knew better than Jesus because Moses (or whoever wrote the old Testament) was closer to those historical times, and it does not work that way.
Under the assumption that Jesus had no divine power/knowledge then yes I would agree with the argument that Moses had better knowledge of the events closer to him than Jesus did.

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Jesus came long after Moses but we view Jesus as inspired.
I fail to see how inspiration plays a role here.

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So too the Qur'an came at a later time, but when we view the Qur'an as inspired then the time does not make any difference.
I don’t view the Quran as inspired. And for the sake of argument I’m not viewing the Bible as inspired either.

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There are people and books today who have far more insight then was available 1000 or 2 or 3000 years ago, and so historical accuracy is never the criteria.
I don’t know what you mean by “insight.” Historians work under the methodology that the closer a work is temporally to the event/person in question the more reliable it is. An ancient biography written 40-50 years after the event is taken at face value to be more historically reliable than a book written 400-500 years after. There would have to be some very good reasons indeed for the reverse to be the case. That’s how historians work.

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I see this thread title as inaccurate because instead of saying that Jesus of the Gospel is fiction - it is really just the people of Christianity who misunderstand the true Gospel of Jesus in the New Testament.
That could be the case but it would be irrelevant to the thread.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:51 pm
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paarsurrey1 wrote:

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(Mary) giving birth to a boy who is immediately articulate


Please quote the verse/s of Quran that mentions it.
Anybody, please.

Regards


I am astonished you don't know. Surah 19:Maryam.

Here are the relevant verses on the birth of Jesus.

"Your Lord has provided a brook that runs at your feet and if you shake the trunk of this palm tree it will drop fresh ripe dates in your lap."

Carrying the child, she came to her people, who said to her.
"This is indeed a strange thing. Sister of Aaron, your father was never a whore-monger nor was your mother a harlot."

She made a sign pointing to the child. But they replied: "How can we speak with a babe in the cradle?"

WHEREUPON HE SPOKE AND SAID: "I AM THE SERVANT OF ALLAH. HE HAS GIVEN ME THE GOSPEL AND ORDAINED ME A PROPHET."


The hours old baby continues in such articulate fashion for quite a bit.

Hilarious! And we wonder if this is FACT!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:44 pm
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(Mary) giving birth to a boy who is immediately articulate

One did not provide the verses in the context as requested, so I provide them here again:

[19:22] He replied, ‘Thus it is.’ But says thy Lord, ‘It is easy for Me; and We shall do so that We may make him a Sign unto men, and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing decreed.’
[19:23] So she conceived him, and withdrew with him to a remote place.
[19:24] And the pains of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said, ‘O! would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite forgotten!’
[19:25] Then he called her from beneath her, saying, “Grieve not. Thy Lord has placed a rivulet below thee;
[19:26] “And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree; it will cause fresh ripe dates to fall upon thee.
[19:27] “So eat and drink, and cool thy eye. And if thou seest any man, say, ‘I have vowed a fast to the Gracious God; I will therefore not speak this day to any human being.’”
[19:28] Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, ‘O Mary, thou hast brought forth a strange thing.
[19:29] ‘O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother an unchaste woman!’
[19:30] Then she pointed to him. They said, ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?’
[19:31] He said, ‘I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet;
[19:32] ‘And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live;
[19:33] ‘And He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed.
[19:34] ‘And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.’
[19:35] Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.
[19:36] It does not befit the Majesty of Allah to take unto Himself a son. Holy is He. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, ‘Be!’, and it is.
[19:37] Said Jesus: ‘Surely, Allah is my Lord, and your Lord. So worship Him alone; this is the right path.’
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=19&verse=30

Quran is not a Book/Recitation of history, it is a corrective book that bring out the reality.

I could not find the word "immediately" in the verses quoted by one in the later post (#9) as mentioned by one in one's earlier post (#5) . Right, please?

Regards

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