A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

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For_The_Kingdom
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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Jagella wrote: Real-Jesus apologists really need to employ a lot of epistemological contortions to save their real Jesus. Mythicism generally is much more direct and relies on fewer assumptions.
The vast majority of historians believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed, based on historical evidence. Guys like Carrier are part of the minority. That, followed by the fact that he got destroyed by WLC in their debate on the Resurrection, and it is obvious that his view may hold some weight on the popular level...however, those in the scholarly circles (which would include unbelievers) don't really rock with Richard Carrier on this topic.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by 1213 »

Tcg wrote: According to the story, Jesus was a god/human hybrid.
Bible doesn’t speak about hybrids.
Tcg wrote:Are we to imagine that a god/human hybrid would have less influence than simple humans?
It seems to me that Jesus has more influence than any other man. After about 2000 years, there is still over amazing number of Christians. And that is, even though Christians have often been persecuted.
Tcg wrote:Are we to imagine that a full blown god would have less power than regular humans?
No.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by 1213 »

Jagella wrote: That's an interesting hypothesis. Do you think the Pharisees destroyed all the evidence for Jesus from the early first century? Is there any direct evidence for this idea?
Pharisees and Romans could have done that and they had motive for doing it. And if Bible is correct, they probably did so. Evidence for this would be that we don’t easily found scriptures about Jesus, from the era of Jesus.

But if we think for example the Dead Sea Scrolls, they were hidden. Now why would people hide texts? Obviously because someone wanted to destroy them and people wanted to preserve them? True, the texts are allegedly from Jewish group, not from Christians. I believe they were Christians, because they had “ritual baths�, they shared property as disciples of Jesus would have done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

If it was a Christian community as I believe, all the evidence for it would also be destroyed or invalidated by modern leaders who don’t want that Christianity gets any stronger. The same “spirit� that destroyed Christians and their scriptures still exists and does everything to cover up what happened so that you would be blind and lost.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by 1213 »

Tiberius47 wrote: But it's not very plausible. Bill Clinton couldn't keep the Lewinsky thing secret, and he had far more resources than anyone living back in the days of Jesus. And the Lewinsky thing was just one person. If they couldn't keep one person quiet, how could you expect anyone living 2000 odd years ago to keep 5000 people quiet?
Clinton is just one man that has also many enemies. It is very probable that things like that would come to light. Even if not true, such things could be framed. But as we can see, the story of Jesus came also visible, even though many people even today try to fight against it.

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Post by Wootah »

Another thought on this that came to mind because it is Christmas.

God came as a child to a tiny place with no fanfare.

It really is a quiet story with a loud impact. What the OP is observing seems to me to be the intention of God.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by Danmark »

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Jagella wrote: Real-Jesus apologists really need to employ a lot of epistemological contortions to save their real Jesus. Mythicism generally is much more direct and relies on fewer assumptions.
The vast majority of historians believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed, based on historical evidence. Guys like Carrier are part of the minority. That, followed by the fact that he got destroyed by WLC in their debate on the Resurrection, and it is obvious that his view may hold some weight on the popular level...however, those in the scholarly circles (which would include unbelievers) don't really rock with Richard Carrier on this topic.
Please prove carrier was 'destroyed' in the debate. Those who favor WLC's position thought he won. Those who don't preferred Carrier's arguments. WLC is an excellent debater in part because he makes so many phony arguments, using false facts that it is virtually impossible to keep up with them all. At any rate, your opinion means nothing, has nothing to do with the truth of the matter debated.

The more important point is not whether or not there was a preacher or cult leader named Jesus who was from Nazareth. Most scholars indeed believe there was a person like that. The IMPORTANT question is whether the Gospels' various contradictory versions of him are true. Are some of the stories in the Gospels accurate? Are any of them? On those questions the experts are not in agreement. What we know for certain is that the story of his prophecy on the Mt. of Olives certainly did not come true. He did not return within a generation as the authors said he claimed he would. 2000 years and counting and nothing. Nothing but some late entries in the NT that tried to muddy the water about what the disciples, including Paul, wrote about the imminence of the "2d Coming." With each passing year the coffin on the corpse gets sealed tighter. Every year when some 'miracle' healing gets found out as fraud, the 2000 year old lie is further exposed.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by dio9 »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I would say Jesus was so small time nobody bothered to write about him. How ever this does not mean his message wasn't big time.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 61 by For_The_Kingdom]
The vast majority of historians believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed...Guys like Carrier are part of the minority.
I've been told that many times. What are the percentages?
...based on historical evidence.
And what is that evidence? We should check that evidence to see if it truly supports the hypothesis that Jesus existed.
That, followed by the fact that he got destroyed by WLC in their debate on the Resurrection...
What was the final score?
...and it is obvious that his view may hold some weight on the popular level...
Do those on "the popular level" simply don't understand the evidence for Jesus? Are those "on the popular level" made up of skeptics or believers or both?
...however, those in the scholarly circles (which would include unbelievers) don't really rock with Richard Carrier on this topic.
Other scholars who are either mythicists or agnostic on the historicity of Jesus include Robert Price, Hector Avalos, and Raphael Lataster.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by Jagella »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

I would say Jesus was so small time nobody bothered to write about him. How ever this does not mean his message wasn't big time.
Jesus' "message" was big time, all right. That part of the world in the first century was undergoing some profound changes in religion. Religion was taking on a more "personal" rather than a political basis. Ideas like "salvation" were becoming very popular. If there was no Jesus at that time, then it would have been necessary to invent one.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 69 by Jagella]

I've always found the message of the New Testament easily explained by cross-culturalism.

When you note that Greece had recently discovered omnipotence in Zeus.
When you consider the introduction of demi-gods.


Well, nit to draw it out, but Christianity is a logical conclusion of the exposure of Jerusalem to Greek ideas.
This is a test: Had this been an actual revolution, the virus would have been much stronger.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

Who would be proud these tactics?

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