WAS MARY A VIRGIN OR WAS SHE NOT?

[sami]

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Was Mary a virgin or was she not? What does the Bible prove?

I’ve read many internet posts that not only deny but make a
mockery of the virgin birth of Jesus. It seems they use as evidence for their theoretical position - the Hebrew word used to depict Mary as a virgin, ALMAH.

In the Bible books of Matthew and Luke, when compiling and penning their histories, used the term ALMAH ( maiden) or HA ALMAH (the maiden).

Those opposed to the biblical account, take that to infer that Mary was not a virgin – chaste. One must understand that under the ancient Hebrew system, a woman who was betrothed was looked upon as married. However, the couple were not to have sexual relations until the man took her from the home of her parents to his home.

To further define the betrothed state, if a betrothed woman had sexual relations with a man whom she was not betrothed, she was looked upon as an adulteress and the two who committed such an offense were to be executed. It is in this light, because of the binding nature of engagement, Joseph planned to divorce Mary, although no ceremony had united them in wedlock. Joseph could plan to give Mary, his betrothed, a certificate of divorce after he took her to his home. An engaged woman (virgin/almah) had a legal standing different from an unengaged woman (virgin/betulah). (Exodus 22:16, 17; Deuteronomy 22:23-29)

The controversy or issue arises because neither Matthew nor Luke used the Hebrew word BETULAH (fem.)VIRGIN: An unmarried young woman who is absolutely chaste. Strong's #: 1330

But used ALMAH - most often used to depict a female who has moved from child to young adult and of the age to marry. The Hebrew word NA-ARA can also be applied to a young unmarried woman-virgin.

The base of their argument lies in their understanding or lack thereof, of these Hebrew words.( BETULAH - ALMAH)

There is an example found in the Hebrew texts which sets a standard for defining BETULAH and ALMAH.

This example is that of Abraham who sent his servant (Eliezer) to find a wife for his son, Isaac. Genesis chapter 24

When Eliezer reached the land of Abraham’s relatives, he prayed to Jehovah for a sign that his choosing would be in harmony with God’s will. Genesis 24:13,14

Verse 16 describes the young woman - Rebekah as betulah (virgin) Strongs 1330 “An unmarried young woman who is absolutely chaste.� (not yet betrothed)

Eliezer asked the young woman for a sip of the water she had just drawn from the well. (in harmony with his prayer) Rebekah responded exactly as he had petitioned Jehovah as the sign that she was the one Jehovah had approved.

In verse 22 when all the camels had finished drinking “, the man took out for her a gold nose ring weighing a half shekel and two bracelets of gold weighing ten shekels.� – When Rebekah accepted these gifts, she became a betrothed, engaged woman -(Almah)

In verse 23 he inquires “Please tell me, whose daughter are you? Is there any room at your father’s house for us to spend the night?�

In vss. 24 - 27 She responds “I am the daughter of Be·thuʹel the son of Milʹcah, whom she bore to Naʹhor.�

25 And she added: “We have both straw and much fodder and also a place to spend the night.�

26 Then the man bowed down and prostrated himself before Jehovah

27 and said: “May Jehovah be praised, the God of my master Abraham, for he has not abandoned his loyal love and his faithfulness toward my master. Jehovah has guided me to the house of the brothers of my master.

In vss. 28 - 31 And the young woman (Hebrew, han na ara - virgin, girl; Greek, par·theʹnos ) ran to tell her mother’s household about these things.

29 Now Rebekah had a brother whose name was Laʹban. So Laʹban ran to the man who was outside at the spring.

30 When he saw the nose ring and the bracelets on the hands of his sister and heard the words of his sister Rebekah, who was saying, “This is the way the man spoke to me,� he came to meet the man, who was still there standing by the camels at the spring.

31 At once he said: “Come, you who are blessed by Jehovah. Why do you keep standing out here? I have made the house ready and a place for the camels.�

Eliezer proceeds to tell Laban and his family the entire story vss. 32-52… notice that in verse 43 Rebekah is now referred to as “the maiden� or in some translations “young woman� (Strongs 5959) in Hebrew ha-almah, the same word used for Mary in the accounts written by Matthew and Luke. A Virgin girl who had become betrothed, engaged.

So what was it that changed her status from BETULAH (verse 16) and ALMAH (verse 43)? The answer is in vss. 22 and 47. When the nose ring and the bracelets were placed upon her she agreed to the marriage, she was then engaged, betrothed to Isaac. Had she had sexual relations between vss. 16 and 43? No, she was a virgin, but her status changed from BETULAH ( not betrothed, engaged) to ALMAH (betrothed, engaged).[/font]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by sami]

The bible account records Mary as stating she was a virgin and had not had sexual intercourse. We can believe the account or not, I personally believe the account to be factual.


JW

[Justin108]

I personally believe the account to be factual.

Why?

[JehovahsWitness]

I personally believe the account to be factual.

Why?

Because I have confidence in the author of the bible and his ability to perform miracles. Because the gospel writer Luke has proved under examination to be extremely accurtate and there is enough evidence to reasonably conclude the bible has been accurately transmitted to us today. Because it would have been most unusual that an unmarried girl in her circumstance would NOT be a virgin and it harmonizes with what subsequently happened in the extraordinary life and abilities and explicit claims of the both the child she is reported to have carried (and those that personally knew him). Not one but the body of ALL of these factors combined have lead me to personally be convinced that the account is factual.


JW




FURTHER READING :

Are Miracles Really Possible?Three Common Objections
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012562

Jesus Birth: How and Why It Happened
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002921




RELATED POSTS

VIRGIN Does the writer of Matthew "mistranslate" or "misapply" Isaiah 7:14?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 18#p763618

Did Mary lie about her pregnancy to avoid being stoned?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p898401

Are biblical hereditary rights based on biology?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 98#p781898

When does Luke indicate Jesus was born?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p831863

Was Jesus a wicked baby?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 17#p980517

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE VIRGIN MARY , JESUS CHRIST and ...CONCEPTION & BIRTH

[Justin108]

I personally believe the account to be factual.

Why?

Because I have confidence in the author of the bible. The gospel writer Luke has proved under examination to be extremely accurtate

1. How has it been proven to be extremely accurate? Can you give a few examples?
2. Does being accurate in some instances mean that Luke is accurate in all instances? Is everything Luke says automatically true just because previous claims by Luke were true?
3. How would Luke even know if Mary was a virgin? Did he examine her himself? Or did he just take her word for it?

Because it would have been most likely that an unmarried girl in her circumstance would NOT be a virgin and it harmonizes with what subsequently happened in the extraordinary life and abilities and explicit claims of the both the child she is reported to have carried (and those that personally knew him) while a virgin. Not one but the body of ALL of these factors combined have lead me to personally be convinced that the account is factual.

Assuming Jesus did have these extraordinary abilities, does it follow that all fantastic stories about Jesus are true? If a small Christian sect believed that Jesus could breathe fire, would this be true simply because Jesus was known for possessing extraordinary abilities?

[JehovahsWitness]

1. How has it been proven to be extremely accurate?

How? By containing details which if they can be checked, prove to accurate or contextually sound.

Can you give a few examples?

See the book of Luke and Acts. There is nothing in the book of Luke that can be proven to be false.

2. Does being accurate in some instances mean that Luke is accurate in all instances?

Not necessarily, no. I personally however have found nothing that gives me reason to doubt the integrity of its content.

3. How would Luke even know if Mary was a virgin? Did he examine her himself? Or did he just take her word for it?

He probably took her word for it.

Assuming Jesus did have these extraordinary abilities, does it follow that all fantastic stories about Jesus are true?

No, not necessarily no, but someone that has the power to raise the dead and defy known laws of physics would in my opinion have supernatural powers. Claims of a supernatural origin would therefore in context logically harmonize with those facts.

If a small Christian sect believed that Jesus could breathe fire, would this be true simply because Jesus was known for possessing extraordinary abilities?

Well there would be logically a reason WHY "Jesus was known for possessing extraordinary abilities" . The "fire breathing" detail is not one I would necessarily take to be accurate but if the community could produce believable eyewitness accounts of it I would be inclined to give their claims consideration especially if those early witnesses demonstrated the genuiness of their belief. I would have to know more about the individual of course, but if I could read detailed independently written accounts about the individual (and if that one proved to be one of the most influential figures in human history) then I would at least be inclined to listen objectively to those accounts, witholding judgement until I did.



JW



RELATED POSTS

Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 870#330870

Is there a methodology in the analysis of a miracle?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 409#878409

FURTHER READING :

Are Miracles Really Possible?—Three Common Objections
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012562

Jesus’ Birth—How and Why It Happened
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002921

[Justin108]

1. How has it been proven to be extremely accurate?

How? By containing details which if they can be checked, prove to accurate or contextually sound.

And if they can't be checked? How would you know if a claim is "extremely accurate"?

Can you give a few examples?

See the book of Luke and Acts. There is nothing in the book of Luke that can be proven to be false.

Nothing in the Quran can be proven to be false, so by your logic, the Quran is just as accurate as Luke and Acts.

Is that how you define "extremely accurate"? If it cannot be proven false, it is therefore extremely accurate?

2. Does being accurate in some instances mean that Luke is accurate in all instances?

Not necessarily, no. I personally however have found nothing that gives me reason to doubt the integrity of its content.

So no matter how radical a claim is, you would believe it based on how much integrity you suppose the author has? Suppose Luke had integrity but Mary did not? Suppose Mary lied about her virginity and Luke believed her? His reputation for having integrity wouldn't matter if the person he placed his trust in lied.

3. How would Luke even know if Mary was a virgin? Did he examine her himself? Or did he just take her word for it?

He probably took her word for it.

What if she lied?

The "fire breathing" detail is not one I would necessarily take to be accurate but if the community could produce believable eyewitness accounts of it I would be inclined to give their claims consideration especially if those early witnesses demonstrated the genuiness of their belief.

Did Mary's virginity have eyewitness accounts? I don't recall any mention of any examination. And in what way does the genuineness of a belief matter?

[JehovahsWitness]

And if they can't be checked? How would you know if a claim is "extremely accurate"?

If something cannot be proven one way or the other other both the believer and the non-believer make a decision based on the same thing, surrounding available information. Many facts and details in the bible can be verified, those that cannot (like the issue of the virgin birth) remain a matter of faith. I believe I have already outlined my reasoning on this matter above.

[Justin108]

And if they can't be checked? How would you know if a claim is "extremely accurate"?

If something cannot be proven one way or the other other both the believer and the non-believer make a decision based on the same thing, surrounding available information. Many facts and details in the bible can be verified, those that cannot (like the issue of the virgin birth) remain a matter of faith.

Yes but when I asked why you believe Mary was a virgin, you didn't say "because faith". You said "because the gospel writer Luke has proved under examination to be extremely accurate". Yet when I asked you to give me examples of Luke's "extreme accuracy", you failed to do so.

So are you going to give me examples of Luke's "extremely accurate gospel"? Or are you going to change your answer to "I believe Mary is a virgin on faith"?

[JehovahsWitness]

Nothing in the Quran can be proven to be false, so by your logic, the Quran is just as accurate as Luke and Acts.

Have you read the Quran? Do you know the Quran well enough to make such an assersion? Even if that were true, that would only present a first step in my considerations as to whether I accept the accounts as truthful (see my methodology outlined in the posts above) thus it would not be enough to conclude both might be equally accurate although that might be a possibility.

Is that how you define "extremely accurate"? If it cannot be proven false, it is therefore extremely accurate?

I do believe I have already addressed this issue (see question #1 above)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 373#898373