What Truth Is

[Jagella]

The warrior Miyamoto Musashi said:

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Can Christians understand this principle? You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

[tam]

The warrior Miyamoto Musashi said:

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Can Christians understand this principle? You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

Would that not be you assuming God does not exist? How do you know THAT is the truth?


I like the quote, btw.

Peace to you!

[William]

The warrior Miyamoto Musashi said:

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Can Christians understand this principle? You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

Why just call it out on Christians?

Wouldn't it be more truthful to call it out on theists?

[ttruscott]

Can secular materialists understand this principle? You can try to argue your God out of existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 2 by tam]

Would that not be you assuming God does not exist? How do you know THAT is the truth?

I'm as susceptible to denying the truth as anybody else. We all must bend to its power as Miyamoto Musashi says. If I deny the truth, then I will live a lie. It's entirely possible that God is real and that I'm missing him for some reason. However, after over thirty years as a person who believes in no gods, I still see no reason for believing in any of them.

But how am I any better off this way than any Christian? The advantage I have is that I experience no pressure to conform to any denial of the existence of gods. I try to think freely and try to be open as I can to any truth including the possible truths of theism. Christians, on the other hand, are terrorized by their religion which threatens them with eternal punishment if they fail to believe. Christianity also dangles the carrot of heaven taking advantage of people's desire to live on rather than die. With such psychological manipulation, it is unlikely that Christians truly feel free to think rationally about the truth of what they're being told. I am free of that kind of manipulation, and therefore I can confidently say that I am facing the truth "bending to its power" and admitting it.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 3 by William]

Wouldn't it be more truthful to call it out on theists?

Sure. It's a good principle for everybody to accept the truth whether they like it or not.

[Jagella]

Can secular materialists understand this principle? You can try to argue your God out of existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

If some gods exist, then to deny them is folly. If Zeus exists for example, then you and I are both living a lie if we don't recognize his reality.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 5 by Jagella]

However, after over thirty years as a person who believes in no gods, I still see no reason for believing in any of them.

GOOD GRIEF! What kind of argument is that? This would be no different than if I was to argue, "after over thirty years as a person who believes in God, I see no reason for not believing." If I were to make such an argument, would you consider it to be a good argument? If not, then what causes you to believe that it is any better, when you make that argument?

Your argument is not much different than a Christian who might say, "you ask me how I know he lives? Because I feel him in my heart."

But how am I any better off this way than any Christian? The advantage I have is that I experience no pressure to conform to any denial of the existence of gods. I try to think freely and try to be open as I can to any truth including the possible truths of theism. Christians, on the other hand, are terrorized by their religion which threatens them with eternal punishment if they fail to believe. Christianity also dangles the carrot of heaven taking advantage of people's desire to live on rather than die. With such psychological manipulation, it is unlikely that Christians truly feel free to think rationally about the truth of what they're being told. I am free of that kind of manipulation, and therefore I can confidently say that I am facing the truth "bending to its power" and admitting it.

You write a whole paragraph here, and in it you make a whole lot of assumptions, and we will got to them. However, after writing this whole paragraph, you still failed to answer the question posed by "Tam", which was,

Would that not be you assuming God does not exist? How do you know THAT is the truth?

You see, she does not seem to be asking, why you believe there are no gods, and she does not seem to be asking why you may not believe in any sort of god, rather she is asking, how are you certain that there is no god?

This question is legitimate, since in the OP you say,

You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

The question then becomes, how are you certain that it is those who believe in a god that are "living the lie", and not those who do not believe that are, "living the lie?"

You see, one can, "live a lie" in a number of ways. As an example, I could simply assume God exists, and from here, assume that all those who do not believe, have no reason for their unbelief. In other words, I could simply assume that God is a demonstrable fact, and live my life accordingly, and thereby I would be, "living a lie."

Therefore, what I should do is simply to claim to believe in God, but also acknowledge, the possibility of my own error, while also acknowledging that I cannot in any way demonstrate that there is indeed a God. In this way, how would I be, "living a lie."

So, now the question to you is, how can you make such a statement in the OP, if the statement is not, a demonstrable fact? If you cannot demonstrate the statement to be a fact, then who is it, that is, "living the lie?"

But how am I any better off this way than any Christian?

The question is NOT, "how are you any better off." Rather, the question is, how do you come to the absolute conclusion that, you are right, and Christians are the ones, "living the lie."

The advantage I have is that I experience no pressure to conform to any denial of the existence of gods.

This assumes that all Christians believe, because they, "are pressured to conform." I will assure you that I have no such pressure at all. The only fear I have, is believing a lie. So, if there really is no god, then why would I want to create such a god, and fear that I am not "conforming?"

When I began to study Christianity, I was not even attending Church. The only reason I began to even study Christianity, is because I knew my children would be exposed to it, and I wanted to be able to give them a good and solid reason as to why we were not attending Church ourselves, when there were others in our family who were?

If my concern was to obtain information for my children, then why in the world would I want to create a situation in which I would lie to them? If you really would like to know the truth, I do not want to believe Christianity. Who, would want to?

I try to think freely and try to be open as I can to any truth including the possible truths of theism.

So what? You act as if I cannot say this myself? I can, and I do! My mind is not controlled by any sort of Church. I am free to use my mind in any way I wish. This is simply another assumption that Christians cannot possibly think past what they are taught. That my friend is, "living a lie!"

Christians, on the other hand, are terrorized by their religion which threatens them with eternal punishment if they fail to believe. Christianity also dangles the carrot of heaven taking advantage of people's desire to live on rather than die.

Here is another assumption. You seem to assume that Christians must, and have to begin with, the fear of punishment, and or the hope of reward, and it could not be possible that they simply ignored these things, and became convinced by the actual evidence involved.

In other words, you assume that I must have seen the fear of punishment, and or the hope of reward, and this must be the reason I believe.

This is really silly. If it could be absolutely demonstrated that there was no god at all, then how would anyone fear any sort of punishment, or have a hope for any sort of reward?

With such psychological manipulation, it is unlikely that Christians truly feel free to think rationally about the truth of what they're being told.

GOOD GRIEF! You act as if the world is filled with Churches who are simply out to manipulate the minds of people? I understand that there are those Churches who participate in this sort of thing, but it would be an extreme assumption to think that this is the way in which all Churches operate.

As an example, I was brought up in Church. However, by the age of 19, I was not attending Church at all, because I had no desire to do so. I was not pressured in any way, and I continued to have a relationship with my folks, and also those in the Church in which I was raised.

So then, your theory would not be correct in my case. I was, and am free to use my mind as I wish. I never simply accept what I am told, but rather continue to think critically about everything, including those things in the Bible.

If your theory is not true concerning myself, more than likely there are many others like me.

I am free of that kind of manipulation, and therefore I can confidently say that I am facing the truth "bending to its power" and admitting it.

Well, it seems to me what we have seen is, one who makes many assumptions that have not, and cannot be demonstrated. This one then goes on to conclude that those who are not in agreement with them, must have their minds confined in some sort of way, and they must not be able to think for themselves.

In the end we seem to have one who assumes that others must be, "living a lie", when it seems we have clearly demonstrated that it truly may be, the other way around!

[William]

The warrior Miyamoto Musashi said:

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.

Can Christians understand this principle? You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.

[Replying to post 3 by William]

Wouldn't it be more truthful to call it out on theists?

Sure. It's a good principle for everybody to accept the truth whether they like it or not.

Thus the question now is:

Can theists understand this principle?[/b] You can try to argue your God into existence, but by doing so you just end up living a lie.[/quote]

My theology assumes an original creator being has always existed and the assumption is purely logical.
Thus it is not a matter of trying to argue such a creator into existence as the creator exists whether we wish to accept that logic or not.

So no, it is not 'living a lie'. It is living with the knowledge that the local conclusion to make is that such an eternal entity MUST exist.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 8 by Realworldjack]

GOOD GRIEF!

Golly gee! Didn't I suggest you not waste your time reading the Peanuts comic strip?

What kind of argument is that?

What argument? I was just explaining what I've concluded about the gods.

...you still failed to answer the question posed by "Tam", which was:

Would that not be you assuming God does not exist? How do you know THAT is the truth?

I wouldn't go so far as to say I know with 100 percent assurance that there are no gods. I'd say I'm 99.99 percent sure there are no gods. I've never seen any good evidence for any gods after looking very hard for them for a very long time. As I see it, after such a long time but with no evidence, the sensible thing to do is to doubt that there are any gods.

The question then becomes, how are you certain that it is those who believe in a god that are "living the lie", and not those who do not believe that are, "living the lie?"

Well, frankly after reading posts like yours, I see people who claim to believe in one god or another as insecure. They really get upset if anybody openly doubts their cherished belief. It seems to me that Christians and other theists are desperate to get a ticket to heaven and cheat death. Since they know it's a long shot, they need all the agreement and support they can get from people assuring them that yes, there is a god!

So, now the question to you is, how can you make such a statement in the OP, if the statement is not, a demonstrable fact? If you cannot demonstrate the statement to be a fact, then who is it, that is, "living the lie?"

I was just posting my opinion. If you're upset with my skepticism, then don't read my posts. If you do read them, then seek an apologist to prove me wrong.

...if there really is no god, then why would I want to create such a god, and fear that I am not "conforming?"

I didn't say you created any gods. The people who started religions created gods.

If you really would like to know the truth, I do not want to believe Christianity.

Then don't believe it.

You act as if the world is filled with Churches who are simply out to manipulate the minds of people? I understand that there are those Churches who participate in this sort of thing, but it would be an extreme assumption to think that this is the way in which all Churches operate.

All the churches I attended, both Catholic and Protestant, used psychological manipulation to get people to believe. The Jehovah's Witnesses do it too. It all comes straight out of the New Testament. Did you ever bother to read it?

In the end we seem to have one who assumes that others must be, "living a lie", when it seems we have clearly demonstrated that it truly may be, the other way around!

I imagine you dearly hope I'm living a lie. Otherwise, there's no "heaven for Jack."