God has a god.

[Checkpoint]

Scriptures tell us that God the Father is the God of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Anyone who has a god is not, by definition, God.

Therefore, Jesus Christ is not the one true God.

God the Father has no god.

He is therefore, by definition, God Himself, the only true God.

What say you?

Relevant scriptures

Psalm 45:7;Hebrews 1:9

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Mark 15:34

And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema
sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

John 20:17

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

2 Corinthians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 1:3

We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Peter 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy, He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[Checkpoint]

God is a Trinity, meaning that he is one God who exists in three persons. All persons are identical in essence while distinct in person.

In Rev. 3:14, the word that the Jehovah Witnesses understand as “beginning� is “arche� in Greek. It can be translated that way, but as Arndt and Gingrich noted in their Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, it means “first cause.� For that reason, the word used here means the “origin� or “source� of God’s creation. It does NOT mean that Christ was the first creation of God. It means he was the origin or source of the creation. Since the Bible also states that God is Creator, that means that Jesus as God the Son is God along with God the Father.

When Paul calls Jesus the “firstborn�, he isn’t referring to the first-created being. The word Paul uses is “prototokos� which means “the first in rank, preeminence, supremacy or sovereignty�. The Greek word meaning the first to be born is “protoktisis�. Paul would have used that word if he meant that Jesus was the first created being. See here:

http://biblehub.com/str/greek/4416.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/2937.htm

David is called the first-born, but he wasn't literally the first son of his father, Jesse. It means he was the first in rank as King of Israel.

Then there’s the phrase “only begotten Son�. Again, we go to the Greek and see that it comes from the word “monogenes� which means “the only one of his kind�. In other words, it means that Jesus is unique. It does not mean that he was a created being.

I agree with these definitions of those two Greek words ["prototokos" and "monogenes"], and to most of your explanation, but not to the conclusion that "Jesus is God", or to similar statements.

Jesus never said "I am the eternal God", or "I am God the Son".

Rather, he did say, to the Father, "You, the only true God", and, to his disciples, that the Father is "my God and your God, my Father and your Father".

[JehovahsWitness]

When Paul calls Jesus the “firstborn�, he isn’t referring to the first-created being. The word Paul uses is “prototokos� which means “the first in rank, preeminence, supremacy or sovereignty�. The Greek word meaning the first to be born is “protoktisis�. Paul would have used that word if he meant that Jesus was the first created being.

QUESTION: What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?

Some have suggested that since the scriptures have examples of the term "firstborn" (prototokos - π�ωτοτοκος) denoting preeminence (and applied to someone that was NOT the eldest of a given group), it is contextually sound to say that Paul was did not mean Jesus was a created being. Firstly it should be pointed out that the term "firstborn" (prototokos - π�ωτοτοκος) occurs 128 times in the Septuagint and 8 times in the NT and at no time is it used to denote someone "supreme" or "preeminent" of a group he himself does NOT belong to. In other words, even if Paul *is* saying Jesus is "preeminent" he is still saying he (Jesus) is preeminent in a group he (Jesus) belonged to - in short that Jesus is the GREATEST of all the CREATED beings.


FURTHER READING
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm

[JehovahsWitness]

David is called the first-born, but he wasn't literally the first son of his father, Jesse. It means he was the first in rank as King of Israel.

WHY IS DAVID CALLED THE FIRSTBORN (pr�totokos)?

“And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.� -- Psalm 89:28,

This scripture is clearly not giving a new lexical meaning to prototokos but simply showing that God has the right to put David in the position a firstborn (compare 1 Chronicles 26:1-2 and 2 Chronicles 21:3). Scripturally the firstborn in a family was almost invariably given a position of preeminence but that position was not automatic. Take for example the case of Reuben, Jacob's literal first-born; he lost *pre-eminence* but he continued to be known as the "first-born" (prototokos in the Septuagint) of the family - see Gen. 49:3, 4; 1 Chronicles 5:1-3 – RSV. So Psalms is not giving a new or alternative meaning to the world "firsborn" only showing the rights and privileges ATTACHED to that position can on occassion be given (or taken away).

To illustrate: Take the meaning of the word "whore" (or prostitute). The meaning of the word is essentially someone that exchanges sexual favors for money. If a politician, forced to accept illegal money inexchange for political power said that his benefactor is "making a whore out of him" does this mean that the word "whore" can mean prostitute OR politician? Can one legitimately have a definition for whore "one that runs for any kind of political office"? Obviously not, the meaning of the word remains unchanged but the actions have resulted in the subject being submitted to similar feelings of degredation.

That God declared David "firsborn" does not mean the word has two different meanings, only that God's actions have resulted in David having the same rights and privileges of someone who is the born first, even though he was in fact the youngest.


FURTHER READING
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm

[JehovahsWitness]

dupicate

[Pipiripi]

[Replying to post 56 by Pipiripi]

What do you mean Jesus came forth "out of his father"?

John 16:27-28....."For the FATHER Himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD. I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come in to the world: I leave the world, go to the Father."

Jesus is not a creation spirit like the angels. He comes out, out the Father. Do you understand now!!

No I don't. "came out" how? Pushed out of of his uterus like a pregnant woman? Broke out of his belly like the alien in the movie? "came out" how?

It isn't written in the Bible the HOW!! BUT THE WAY. My friend nothing is impossible for God. Self the magicians now in our times are doing great wonders that they have never done in the past. Just YouTube and write the Dynamo something like that. Dont forget that Satan are going to cast FIRE from heaven. Go see it on YouTube. GOD can do whatever He want to. The day you think spiritually you can see how great GOD are.

[Pipiripi]

David is called the first-born, but he wasn't literally the first son of his father, Jesse. It means he was the first in rank as King of Israel.

WHY IS DAVID CALLED THE FIRSTBORN (pr�totokos)?

“And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.� -- Psalm 89:28,

This scripture is clearly not giving a new lexical meaning to prototokos but simply showing that God has the right to put David in the position a firstborn (compare 1 Chronicles 26:1-2 and 2 Chronicles 21:3). Scripturally the firstborn in a family was almost invariably given a position of preeminence but that position was not automatic. Take for example the case of Reuben, Jacob's literal first-born; he lost *pre-eminence* but he continued to be known as the "first-born" (prototokos in the Septuagint) of the family - see Gen. 49:3, 4; 1 Chronicles 5:1-3 – RSV. So Psalms is not giving a new or alternative meaning to the world "firsborn" only showing the rights and privileges ATTACHED to that position can on occassion be given (or taken away).

To illustrate: Take the meaning of the word "whore" (or prostitute). The meaning of the word is essentially someone that exchanges sexual favors for money. If a politician, forced to accept illegal money inexchange for political power said that his benefactor is "making a whore out of him" does this mean that the word "whore" can mean prostitute OR politician? Can one legitimately have a definition for whore "one that runs for any kind of political office"? Obviously not, the meaning of the word remains unchanged but the actions have resulted in the subject being submitted to similar feelings of degredation.

That God declared David "firsborn" does not mean the word has two different meanings, only that God's actions have resulted in David having the same rights and privileges of someone who is the born first, even though he was in fact the youngest.


FURTHER READING
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm

You cannot compare human's rules with heaven's rules. Read Hebrews carefully and you will see HEAVEN'S govern. If Jesus was created than GOD never used the word "COME OUT FORTH"
Come out forth and creation is the same?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 59 by Overcomer]


JOHN 17:3 PROVES JESUS WAS A CREATED BEING

John 17:3 is one of the most recognized scriptures in the bible, it refers to Jesus as being God's "only-begotten" son. The basic Greek word for “only-begotten� used for Jesus here is monogenes, from monos, meaning “only,� and GINOMAI, a root word meaning “to generate,� “to become (come into being),� - Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Thus by saying Jesus was begotten the scripture proves his life had a beginning and that rather than being eternal without beginning Jesus must have been created.

The Greek .... means “the only one of his kind�. In other words, it means that Jesus is unique. It does not mean that he was a created being.

OBJECTION: Monogenes means unique not created.

• This is false. To say the Greek monogenes simply means "the only of a kind" is absolutely false. While "mono" does indeed mean only/unique what about the end of the word? Are we to ignore "genes"? The world "genes" comes from the Greek GINOMAI and it too has a meaning which is not cancelled by its prefix.
  

  “1. to come into being ...be born, be produced.... 2. to come into existence, be made, be CREATED...� - BDAG lexicon
  
  “1. ...mostly of the father, beget, ....produce from oneself, CREATE...� - Liddell & Scott’s Lexicon

  Jesus was indeed unique, special; he was specially, or uniquely BEGOTTEN. In short in Greek mono means unique and genes means begotten/produced. Mono + genes does not mean unique it means "uniquely produced/created". NOTE In the Bible to “beget� and to “create� overlap in their semantic domains and so are used as synonyms. Describing creation, Ps 90:2 says: "Before the mountains were BORN or you gave BIRTH to the earth and the world� (NASB). In Prov 8:22 LXX wisdom is "CREATED" but in verses 24& 25, wisdom is "BEGOTTEN"! (Cf. Isa 65:17, Job 38:28).

OBJECTION: In the case of Jesus, “only-begotten� is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,�, in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,� a sort of only son relationship without the begetting.

• Does that sound logical to you? Why would a two party relationship be described as that of one being "begotten" void of the meaning of the very word begotten? This is like describing a flower as "red" but not in the sense of colour. Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begottenâ€� to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham (Hebrews 11:17)? According to The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel: “The relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.â€�

OBJECTION: Jesus was "begotten" when he was born as a human baby to mary.

• Begotten means to bring into existence. John's gospel makes it clear that the person (THE WORD) that came to earth and was born in flesh was ALREADY alive ie was already in existence prior to his birth as a human. Reproduction, which refers to the biological process by which new individual organisms are produced" is not how The Word/Jesus came into existence, so he being begotten could not be referring to his birth as a human through Mary.

CONCLUSION Jesus cannot be infinite without a beginning as his life came into existence by means of his Father according to John 17:3, which describes Jesus as the "only-begotten Son" and the greek word translated into the English "only-begotten" (monogenes) means uniquely produced/created





RELATED POSTS

MONOGENES (by tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 451#786451

[Pipiripi]

[Replying to post 59 by Overcomer]


JOHN 17:3 PROVES JESUS WAS A CREATED BEING

John 17:3 is one of the most recognized scriptures in the bible, it refers to Jesus as being God's "only-begotten" son. The basic Greek word for “only-begotten� used for Jesus here is monogenes, from monos, meaning “only,� and GINOMAI, a root word meaning “to generate,� “to become (come into being),� - Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Thus by saying Jesus was begotten the scripture proves his life had a beginning and that rather than being eternal without beginning Jesus must have been created.

The Greek .... means “the only one of his kind�. In other words, it means that Jesus is unique. It does not mean that he was a created being.

OBJECTION: Monogenes means uniqueMonogeniesu] created.

• This is false. To say the Greek monogenes simply means "the only of a kind" is absolutely false. While "mono" does indeed mean only/unique what about the end of the word? Are we to ignore "genes"? The world "genes" comes from the Greek GINOMAI and it too has a meaning which is not cancelled by its prefix.
  

  “1. to come into being ...be born, be produced.... 2. to come into existence, be made, be CREATED...� - BDAG lexicon
  
  “1. ...mostly of the father, beget, ....produce from oneself, CREATE...� - Liddell & Scott’s Lexicon

  
  
  Jesus was indeed unique, special; he was specially, or uniquely BEGOTTEN. In short in Greek mono means unique and genes means begotten/produced. Mono + genes does not mean unique it means "uniquely produced/created". NOTE In the Bible to “beget� and to “create� overlap in their semantic domains and so are used as synonyms. Describing creation, Ps 90:2 says: "Before the mountains were BORN or you gave BIRTH to the earth and the world� (NASB). In Prov 8:22 LXX wisdom is "CREATED" but in verses 24& 25, wisdom is "BEGOTTEN"! (Cf. Isa 65:17, Job 38:28).

OBJECTION: In the case of Jesus, “only-begotten� is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,�, in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,� a sort of only son relationship without the begetting.

• Does that sound logical to you? Why would a two party relationship be described as that of one being "begotten" void of the meaning of the very word begotten? This is like describing a flower as "red" but not in the sense of colour. Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begottenâ€� to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham (Hebrews 11:17)? According to The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel: “The relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father.â€�

OBJECTION: Jesus was "begotten" when he was born as a human baby to mary.

• Begotten means to bring into existence. John's gospel makes it clear that the person (THE WORD) that came to earth and was born in flesh was ALREADY alive ie was already in existence prior to his birth as a human. Reproduction, which refers to the biological process by which new individual organisms are produced" is not how The Word/Jesus came into existence, so he being begotten could not be referring to his birth as a human through Mary.

CONCLUSION Jesus cannot be infinite without a beginning as his life came into existence by means of his Father according to John 17:3, which describes Jesus as the "only-begotten Son" and the greek word translated into the English "only-begotten" (monogenes) means uniquely produced/created





RELATED POSTS

MONOGENES (by tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 451#786451

My friends this is my last debate about how Jesus existence begin.

John 16:27-28.....'For the Father Himself loveth you, because you have loveth me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD. I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and I'm come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.'
John 17:7-8.....'Now they have known that all things whatoever you have given me are of you. For I have given unto them the words which you gaveth m; and they have received them, and have known surely that I CAME OUT FROM YOU, and they have believed that YOU DID SEND ME.'

Proverbs 8:23-25.....'I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was, when there was no depths, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH; where there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I BROUGHT FORTH.'

My friends here you will see that there is a single scripture, that say Christ Jesus is created. And I follow only my MASTER JESUS. People with only a spiritual minds can understand spiritual issues.

[onewithhim]

When Paul calls Jesus the “firstborn�, he isn’t referring to the first-created being. The word Paul uses is “prototokos� which means “the first in rank, preeminence, supremacy or sovereignty�. The Greek word meaning the first to be born is “protoktisis�. Paul would have used that word if he meant that Jesus was the first created being.

QUESTION: What did Paul mean when he refered to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)?

Some have suggested that since the scriptures have examples of the term "firstborn" (prototokos - π�ωτοτοκος) denoting preeminence (and applied to someone that was NOT the eldest of a given group), it is contextually sound to say that Paul was did not mean Jesus was a created being. Firstly it should be pointed out that the term "firstborn" (prototokos - π�ωτοτοκος) occurs 128 times in the Septuagint and 8 times in the NT and at no time is it used to denote someone "supreme" or "preeminent" of a group he himself does NOT belong to. In other words, even if Paul *is* saying Jesus is "preeminent" he is still saying he (Jesus) is preeminent in a group he (Jesus) belonged to - in short that Jesus is the GREATEST of all the CREATED beings.


FURTHER READING
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm

Yes, and Jesus himself tells John that he, Jesus Christ, is "the beginning of the creation by God". (Rev.3:14)

This has been twisted by men to mean something other than that he was the first creation. (Acts 20:29,30) Soon these corruptions will be completely exposed for what they are, so that everyone will know for a certainty.

[Pipiripi]

My friend don't twist the word of God. Write a verse completely. Revelation 3:14....' And unto the angel of the church of laodiceans; These things said the Amen, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUTH WITNESS, the beginning of creation.

JESUS is saying here, that He saw how creation begin.