If Jesus is God, why didn't he teach..

[Elijah John]

If Jesus is God, why didn't he teach anyone to pray to Jesus? If he had, do you think his apostles would have been able to take him seriously?

If the notion of praying to Jesus was ridiculous in his own day, then isn't the notion that Jesus is God also ridiculous?

[tam]

Peace to you EBA, and nice to meet you as well.

So as not to get distracted for the moment, I will just stick with the original point.

The point is, did Christ have the free will to lay his life down and the answer is NO HE DID NOT.

And yet He says that He did.

He states directly that He laid down His life of His own accord.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.



Was Christ wrong?

Or are some men wrong in their understanding of free will?

In fact (or better yet, scriptural fact) he was destined to lay his life down: [/color] "This command I received from my Father."

You seem to have overlooked the preceding verses:

No one takes His life from Him. He lays it down of His own accord. He then continues, stating that He has the authority to lay His life down and He has the authority to take it back up. That is the command that He received from His Father: He had authority to do these things.


Yes, He came (and was sent) to give His life. But that does not mean He had no choice or that He was forced to do so. He did so of His own accord. His words.

Did Christ not also say,

Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?�


He chose to do the will of His Father. He was not FORCED to do the will of His Father. At one point, Christ even wanted something else to happen.


Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."



Despite wanting the cup to be taken from Him (if possible), He put the will of His Father before His own will (out of love and faith), and prayed "not as I will, but as you will."



May you be given ears to hear, if you wish them, so as to hear the truth of this and any matter, from the Truth - Christ Jaheshua. May anyone who thirsts and anyone who seeks, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace again to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[EBA]

Sure it is. Just becuase someone knows what you're going to do beforehand doesn't negate one's free will, even if that one is you or God. They aren't mutually exclusive propositions. Jesus told Peter he would deny him, but you don't see Peter getting bent because he has no free will now, do you?

Hello shnarkle, my intention when I posted this:

Sorry to butt in here, but nowhere in scripture does it tell us:

He says he lays down his life of his own free will.

-was to call you out on this heresy. Again, NOWHERE in scripture will we find where "[h]e says he lays down his life of his own free will."

My intention was not to hijack this thread. A thread already exists entitled "Did Christ have free will?"

Here is a link to where my argument starts within that thread:

viewtopic.php?p=893360#893360

If you're interested in pursuing this conversation let's do it there please.

Thanks and peace.

[EBA]

[Replying to post 101 by tam]

Hi Tam, as I just posted to shnarkle, maybe we should move this conversation to this thread:

"Did Christ have free will?"

There is a link in that post which will take you to the onset of my argument.

Thanks.

[tam]

[Replying to post 103 by EBA]

Peace to you EBA!


That other thread seems to have gone off on its own tangent, lol. I took a look through the thread and saw that I had already responded to the question over there. Post 116. I don't think I have been given anything more to add to that, or to what is posted here... except to suggest that one might want to listen to the reason Christ gives for why He does exactly as His Father commands Him.

John 14:31



Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[EBA]

That other thread seems to have gone off on its own tangent, lol. I took a look through the thread and saw that I had already responded to the question over there. Post 116. I don't think I have been given anything more to add to that, or to what is posted here... except to suggest that one might want to listen to the reason Christ gives for why He does exactly as His Father commands Him.

John 14:31

Fair enough, I will respond here then.

The point is, did Christ have the free will to lay his life down and the answer is NO HE DID NOT.

And yet He says that He did.

He states directly that He laid down His life of His own accord.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.

Was Christ wrong?

No Christ is not wrong, but I believe you are.

Do you see anywhere in that verse, or for that matter the whole of the New Testament, the term “free will?�

Good, neither do I and that is because it is a man-made doctrine.

No one takes it from me, - In other words he will not be taken by force.

but I lay it down of my own accord – No fight, no argument, but peacefully.

Those were his choices; put up a fight or to go to his death peacefully, but make no mistake about it HE WAS GOING TO HIS DEATH.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (Isa 53:7)

In fact (or better yet, scriptural fact) he was destined to lay his life down: "This command I received from my Father."

You seem to have overlooked the preceding verses:
No one takes His life from Him. He lays it down of His own accord. He then continues, stating that He has the authority to lay His life down and He has the authority to take it back up. That is the command that He received from His Father: He had authority to do these things.

No I did not overlook them. The point I was making, that you missed, is this: That authority comes from his Father not “free will?�

Yes, He came (and was sent) to give His life. But that does not mean He had no choice or that He was forced to do so. He did so of His own accord. His words.

Yes, his words that you misunderstand.

Did Christ not also say,

Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?�

And why would he need to “call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?� If he has the free will to do it himself?

He chose to do the will of His Father. He was not FORCED to do the will of His Father. At one point, Christ even wanted something else to happen.

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Wait, what? According to most Christians it was absolutely possible; they claim Jesus had the free will to just walk away from this death sentence, so why did Jesus even ask that?

Because he knows something that most Christians don’t; in order for Christ’s will (“may this cup be taken from me�) to be done, God the Father would have needed to CHANGE HIS WILL to line up with his son's will.

Again:

His choices; put up a fight or to go to his death peacefully, but make no mistake about it HE WAS GOING TO HIS DEATH.

Else why ask: if it is possible may this cup be taken from me-

Despite wanting the cup to be taken from Him (if possible), He put the will of His Father before His own will (out of love and faith), and prayed "not as I will, but as you will."

No he did not “put the will of His Father before His own will,� you see Jesus knew something else that most Christians don’t know:

-Thy will be done- (Mat 6:10 and Mat 26:42)

Tam, I do hope Christ opens your eyes to the understanding that:

Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? (Pro 20:24)

I wish you peace and understanding, God Bless.

[Jack]

[Replying to shnarkle]

We believe what the bible teaches The Word was made Jesus. God created everything by His Word. The Word preceded all creation. The Word was God. John teaches us The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. The Word he is referring to is Jesus.

Your theology actually does contradict in scripture.

The fact people are worshipping Jesus without being corrected. Jesus is accepting worship and according to you he isn't God would mean Jesus is guilty of sin. Jesus said I and the Father are one, claiming to be God. The Jews were going to stone him because that is what they thought. That makes him guilty of blasphemy and of lying. Your Jesus is a trickster.

[tam]

Peace to you EBA,

That other thread seems to have gone off on its own tangent, lol. I took a look through the thread and saw that I had already responded to the question over there. Post 116. I don't think I have been given anything more to add to that, or to what is posted here... except to suggest that one might want to listen to the reason Christ gives for why He does exactly as His Father commands Him.

John 14:31

Fair enough, I will respond here then.

The point is, did Christ have the free will to lay his life down and the answer is NO HE DID NOT.

And yet He says that He did.

He states directly that He laid down His life of His own accord.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.

Was Christ wrong?

No Christ is not wrong, but I believe you are.

Do you see anywhere in that verse, or for that matter the whole of the New Testament, the term “free will?�

Good, neither do I and that is because it is a man-made doctrine.

No one takes it from me, - In other words he will not be taken by force.

but I lay it down of my own accord – No fight, no argument, but peacefully.

That is not what 'of my own accord' means.

"Of my own accord" means that He willingly did this. No one forced Him to do this.

accord
noun
Definition of accord for Students
1 : agreement 1, harmony He acted in accord with the rules.
2 : willingness to act or to do something They left of their own accord.
3 agreement 3, treaty

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accord

In fact (or better yet, scriptural fact) he was destined to lay his life down: "This command I received from my Father."

You seem to have overlooked the preceding verses:
No one takes His life from Him. He lays it down of His own accord. He then continues, stating that He has the authority to lay His life down and He has the authority to take it back up. That is the command that He received from His Father: He had authority to do these things.

No I did not overlook them. The point I was making, that you missed, is this: That authority comes from his Father not “free will?�

You have a question mark at the end of your sentence, but I am not sure what you are asking. Could you clarify?

Did Christ not also say,

Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?�

And why would he need to “call on My Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?� If he has the free will to do it himself?

Because He will not overstep. He will not try and take from the Father. He will ask; even if He knows that His Father will grant Him what He asks.

But the fact that He COULD do this shows that the option was there and He had the freedom to choose what to do. He could have called upon His Father if He so chose; He COULD have had legions of angels placed at His disposal.

He chose to do the will of His Father. He was not FORCED to do the will of His Father. At one point, Christ even wanted something else to happen.

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Wait, what? According to most Christians it was absolutely possible; they claim Jesus had the free will to just walk away from this death sentence, so why did Jesus even ask that?

Same reason as above. He obeys His Father in all things. Not because He has no choice or no free will... but because He loves His Father.

Same as us.

We do not obey Christ because we have no choice, we obey if we love Him.



John 14:31

But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.

The fact that Christ had the freedom to choose - and He chooses to do as His Father commands - THIS is what shows His love for His Father.

If He had no choice, how would that show His love for His Father?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you!

(oops, I followed a link and did not realize it lead here, so I might already have addressed this in a previous post on this thread)

[Replying to post 46 by JehovahsWitness]

he bible text states God said refering to the Creation of Adam "Let us make man in our image" - Then Adam, given the power of procreation, had a son described as being "in his [Adam's] image". If Adam was made in God's image and his children were in Adam's image, where the children of Adam not also in God's image?

No, they were not. Because Adam was no longer in God's image. Before Adam had children, he had eaten from the tree of knowing good(life) and bad (death). He now had sin and death in him (and he had been given the long garment of skin - this body with sin and death in it).

His children were born in his image (the image of the earthly man) - AFTER he sinned and ate from the tree of knowing good and bad.


We are being MADE into the image of Christ (who is Himself the Image of God):

And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. 1Corinthians 15:49

We are currently in the image of the earthly man (Adam). We are going to BE in the image of the heavenly man (Christ), who is Himself the image of God.

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2Corinthians 3:18

If we were already in His image, then there would be no need for us to be transformed into His image.


For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29

Christ is the image of God. If we are being conformed to the image of Christ, then we do not currently bear that image.



Hope that helps!


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

His children were born in his image (the image of the earthly man) - AFTER he sinned and ate from the tree of knowing good and bad.

I understand that this pov is necessary to make the rest of your theology work but please consider the implications of these questions:

- since GOD proved HE could make people in HIS image perfectly with a free will able to choose to be righteous or evil perfectly, why did HE not create everyone in HIS image this way as HE did for them?

- Another way to ask this is to ask why did HE create everyone but Adam and Eve in HIS image and the rest of us in Adam's image, ie horribly broken, our best as filthy rags, corrupt and unacceptable to HIM?

- Since HE hates evil, why did HE create us evil in Adam's image?

- Since HE hates evil, how could HE even make us evil in Adam's image? HE is light and Adam's image is dark and in HIS light is no darkness at all...yet that is how we were created...?

I of course do not accept that we were made in Adam's sinful image as you and JW assert but all persons were made in HIS image with a free will and some broke that image by choosing to be sinful. Both the elect who chose to be sinful and those who rejected HIS deity for ever were sentenced to live together on earth until the maturity of the sinful elect to holiness and the postponement of the judgment day is ended.

Thus we have sinners who can be redeemed and sinners who sinned the unforgivable sin and were condemned already before their conception, living together on the earth.

All were created ingeniously innocent.
All sinners are sinners because they CHOSE BY THEIR FREE WILL to be sinful in HIS sight.
No one was created as a sinner by any method in the last, especially as sinful and guilty for Adam's sin which contradicts Ezek 18: 20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won’t suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won’t suffer for the sins of their children. which must be ignored or sloughed off to make the current favourite theory that we inherit Adam's sinful nature.

I know inheriting Adam's broken image answers how we can be created at conception yet conceived as evil but it is so wrong; offending free will thus making GOD responsible for our sin, making HIM to be the creator of evil...Anathema!

[tam]

Peace to you Ted,

His children were born in his image (the image of the earthly man) - AFTER he sinned and ate from the tree of knowing good and bad.

I understand that this pov is necessary to make the rest of your theology work but please consider the implications of these questions:

- since GOD proved HE could make people in HIS image perfectly with a free will able to choose to be righteous or evil perfectly, why did HE not create everyone in HIS image this way as HE did for them?

- Another way to ask this is to ask why did HE create everyone but Adam and Eve in HIS image and the rest of us in Adam's image, ie horribly broken, our best as filthy rags, corrupt and unacceptable to HIM?

I cannot understand this line of thought Ted. God did not create anyone evil, including us. But we are not all directly created from the dust, as Adam was created. We are born into this world from our parents, beginning with our first parents. God directly made Adam (and Eve was in Adam before God took her out of him)... but their children come through them (after they sinned and ate of death; and the long garment of skin - this body - has sin and death in it).


Like comes from like. We inherit this flesh and blood from our parents. That is the sin (the error) that we are born with; that we inherit from them (of course everyone at some point sins of their own volition as well, and the wages of sin is death).

- Since HE hates evil, why did HE create us evil in Adam's image?

He did not create us evil.

I of course do not accept that we were made in Adam's sinful image as you and JW assert but all persons were made in HIS image with a free will and some broke that image by choosing to be sinful. Both the elect who chose to be sinful and those who rejected HIS deity for ever were sentenced to live together on earth until the maturity of the sinful elect to holiness and the postponement of the judgment day is ended.

Your theology was created to counter a claim that was false to begin with, yes? But there is no need for an elaborate theology to cover up something that was never true to begin with (that God created us evil).

No one was created as a sinner by any method in the last, especially as sinful and guilty for Adam's sin which contradicts Ezek 18: 20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won’t suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won’t suffer for the sins of their children. which must be ignored or sloughed off to make the current favourite theory that we inherit Adam's sinful nature.

God is not punishing anyone for the sin of Adam. God has provided a way home for those same children. But children can indeed be subject to the consequences of the decisions their parents made. Children can even be sold into slavery by their parents.


Christ is the One who purchased us BACK from Death (the one to whom Adam sold us), with His own blood, and for God.

Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. Acts 20:28

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 1Corinth 7:23

And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. Rev 5:9

I know inheriting Adam's broken image answers how we can be created at conception yet conceived as evil but it is so wrong; offending free will thus making GOD responsible for our sin, making HIM to be the creator of evil...Anathema!

We are created 'in the flesh' at conception.

That does not mean that we (some or even many of us) were not seed (and known by God) even before conception.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy