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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:29 pm
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Application for a Nobel Prize?

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Where do I apply for a Nobel Prize?

I just discovered a proof of why no eternal intelligent God can exist.

The proof is actually so simple it's hard to believe that no one saw before me.

Here it is:

Intelligence cannot exist without reliance upon the second law of thermodynamics. Especially if we are defining intelligence as dynamic conscious thought that is capable of memory and making logically reasoned decisions. The ability to do this requires the second law of thermodynamics in order to perform the necessary functions.

Yet if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules. Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal. Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.

Therefore no eternal intelligent conscious God can exist.

This proof already exists in known physics. Nothing new needed to be added.

So this is a universal truth I 'discovered' and not something I 'invented'.

Where do I apply for my Nobel Prize? Very Happy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:07 pm
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Even if what you claim you have done is actually true DI, I am not so sure they give out the Nobel Prize for such a thing.

But one does not apply for such. One is either nominated or not.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:17 pm
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Did something always exist? Or did something start from nothing?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:31 pm
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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Razorsedge wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Did something always exist? Or did something start from nothing?


I don't see where this question is related to the OP. The OP says absolutely nothing about whether or not something could always exist. In fact, the OP even states that something could indeed exist eternally as long as it is not dependent upon entropy change.

And as far as we know quantum fields of energy do not require entropy change in order to exist. Therefore quantum fields of energy could indeed exist perpetually. All the OP demonstrates is that no conscious intelligent entity that is capable of processing complex thoughts could not.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:35 pm
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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William wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Even if what you claim you have done is actually true DI, I am not so sure they give out the Nobel Prize for such a thing.


You're probably right. Physicists probably couldn't care that it can be proven that no eternal intelligent God could exist. That knowledge isn't going to advance physics. Very Happy

This discovery would probably be something that philosophers would be more interested in.

So what's the prize in philosophy? A pack of bubble gum? I'm too old to start chewing bubble gum. Besides I'm not sure I'd really care to be known as a famous philosopher anyway. Cool

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:17 pm
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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[Replying to post 5 by Divine Insight]

Philosophy tends to take into account possibilities, human experiences, etc and deals with the 'why' question.

Whatever your 'discovery' is DI, it is based upon the assumption that naturalism is the correct way in which to view consciousness.

This - of course - is not shown to be true even that you personally believe it to be so.

Smile

The problem of consciousness persists.


The analogy that springs to mind is this;



It appears that beings who believe they are created tend towards the attraction of idolatry, whatever the idol is. I suppose too, that the more magnificent one thinks one is (as the 'created'), the more magnificent one thinks ones creator is. Smile

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:13 am
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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William wrote:

Whatever your 'discovery' is DI, it is based upon the assumption that naturalism is the correct way in which to view consciousness.

This - of course - is not shown to be true even that you personally believe it to be so.


Sorry, but once again you are wrong. You see, the concept of entropy goes far beyond physics. Apparently you are unaware of this.

Entropy can actually be stated and defined in terms of pure information. In fact, this is what Ludwig Boltzmann is famous for having discovered. So even in theories based on pure philosophy and logic alone Entropy still applies.

So if you are thinking that Entropy is in any way dependent upon a materialistic world you are wrong. It holds true in the arena of pure philosophy as well. It's pretty much equivalent with mathematics in that way.

So it wouldn't matter if you were talking about a hypothetical philosophical totally immaterial world, Entropy would still apply. At least if you claim that your hypothetical world contains any meaningful information or logical thought processes.

So this is independent of a materialistic worldview.

This is why I can confidently say that this is an ultimate proof. If Entropy was solely dependent upon the existence of a material world, then yes, I would indeed be wrong in my claim that this proves that no eternal conscious intelligent God can exist.

It's precisely because Entropy is not dependent on the existence of a material world that makes this proof rock solid.

So if you think that you need to first premise the existence of a material world for this proof to hold, then you are simply wrong.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:50 am
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Not sure what you are claiming here DI.

PHYSICS
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.


lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.

For something to 'decline' into disorder, it has to have been in a state of order before this happened.

You said in the OP;

Quote:
if the second law of thermodynamics is in force, then the system must necessarily run down over time and eventually become inactive. In other words, no perpetual motion is permitted in a system where Entropy rules.


How does this apply where consciousness is the only actual reality? This is to say, 'things' are finite (hence entropy) but consciousness is eternal.

Thus, if no thing existed, consciousness still has itself to self- reference. The act of self referencing might be the cause of things arising - things such as this universe - in which consciousness can investigate as 'real' experience. The things need not be permanent (thus entropy) but I fail to see where you get the idea that consciousness needs entropy in order to 'be conscious, intelligent.'

As you put it;

Quote:
Therefore any intelligent system cannot be eternal.


This would be true regarding things which are non-permanent - consciousness uses them for the experience and once they are no longer useful to display consciousness through/be experienced and learned from, they are left to decay.

Quote:
Thus if an intelligent conscious God exists, it cannot be eternal. Or if an eternal "God" exists it cannot be intelligent or conscious.


You are assuming here that GOD is the creation.
You are also assuming that an eternal entity cannot be conscious - which makes no sense, for what is it if it isn't conscious?

It is a thing.

So yes, there are indeed philosophies and theologies that exist which are larger than your theory here.

Quote:
So this is independent of a materialistic worldview.


Not really. It just assumes that consciousness is material.

Quote:
It's precisely because Entropy is not dependent on the existence of a material world that makes this proof rock solid.


Love the 'rock solid' pun DI!

Smile

The assumption that entropy happens in a non-material world does have merit, because the Astral Plane is reported to contain 'worlds' which are fading...are non permanent - indeed, the only reality which actually exists is consciousness itself, and it determines the shelf life of material and non material universes...

...or as these are often referred to as 'degrees of density' in esoterically circles.

All in all, the idea is that consciousness is the only REAL that exists. Every thing is a non permanent object in which consciousness can experience, and is only 'real' because consciousness experiences it.

In relation to the eternal nature of consciousness, the process of creating universes is eternal even that the universes are not.

What you are saying reminds me of 'The Void' which is often spoken of in some circles as 'where consciousness derives', and from that Indra's Net formed as a metaphor for the interconnected worlds.

As metaphor, The Void represents the connection of two realities which contains neither and thus has no information which can be experienced. In terms of 'before the big bang' which we cannot view, that is a 'Void'.

However, consciousness within a void can still experience itself as information, even that a Void offers none. The Void is also non permanent, even if it was eternal, because it is not infinite. Consciousness can pass through it, from one world/universe to another.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:11 am
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Re: Application for a Nobel Prize?

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William wrote:

Quote:
So this is independent of a materialistic worldview.


Not really. It just assumes that consciousness is material.


Clearly you do not understand the concept of entropy.

Show me which variable in the following equation refers to anything physical:

S = k log W

~~~~

In fact, this was a huge issue for me when I was first introduced to Boltzman's equation in physics classes. I had previously understood entropy as a path integral of heat exchange between two bodies. This I could understand from a purely physical perspective because I understood heat as the flow of kinetic energy from one body to another.

But when I say Boltzman's S = k log W equation I objected it because this equation can clearly be applied to totally abstract non-physical and purely mathematical systems. Like the organization of pure information.

I objected to this because it truly blew my mind that something so abstract could be true about the physical world.

I later realized that the reason this is true is because it's actually impossible for information to exist outside of a physical world. Information only make sense when some "thing" is "in-formation". And a physical world is required for this to occur.

None the less, this doesn't change the fact that those who prefer to pretend that information could make sense outside of a physical world entropy would then necessarily still apply.

So you can't escape entropy be claiming that entropy only applies to a physical world.

If you're going to claim that there exists information outside of the physical world, then you have no choice but to take Entropy with you.

Entropy is not restricted to a physical world. At least not if you claim that numbers, mathematics, or any form of information could exist in a non-physical world.

You're going to be stuck with entropy no matter how purely philosophical you try to get.

This is why this qualifies as a "proof" that no God can be both eternal and intelligent simultaneously. Entropy reaches beyond any physics. So it would necessarily apply to any conscious thinking entity that can supposedly manipulate meaningful information.

So your constantly complaints that my proof only applies to a physical world is simply wrong.

How many times do I need to explain this?

I've just proven that no entity, even a non-physical one can be both eternal and intelligent. It can only be one or the other, but not both.

Actually, I didn't prove this. Entropy proves it. I simply just came to the realization that entropy proves it. We've had this proof ever since Boltzmann discovered it and apparently no one realized it until today. Apparently I'm the first person to realize this! That's amazing!

I can't believe that I didn't see this before. It seems to me that once you realize that this has to be true, there's no going backward.

Your complaint that entropy only applies to a physical world clearly doesn't hold.

Just look at the equation:

S = k log W

There's nothing physical in it unless you demand that information can only exist in a physical world.

I will grant that many materialists already believe that. However, for theists who think that information could exist in a non-physical world we can now see that this still wouldn't help. Entropy would still apply if their non-physical world is said to contain information that could be remembered, or manipulated, or even thought about in any meaningful coherent way.

No physics required, Entropy would still apply. This is what Boltzman's equation shows.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:46 am
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Like this post (1): Swami
The problem is that one is talking about the infinite(I) and whatever is lost due to entropy(E) would be insignificant, because the infinite would still be infinite.

I - E = I'

I' may not include as much as I, but infinity need not be all inclusive. It simply needs to be beyond number. Also, if that law were an eternal law, how did the universe form? If there is a finite amount of matter, it must have been optimally complex at some point. If so, what was it shortly before that. If it was the same, the law did not apply. If it was more complex, we were mistaken in identifying the point of optimum complexity. So, at the point of optimum complexity the law does not apply. Therefore, entropy does not necessarily apply to the all knowing. In order to prove that entropy applies to a given infinite, it must be shown how and when the infinite first digressed.

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