For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

Do you agree that males and females are equally human, yet are distinct from one another?

Do you agree that husbands and wives have different roles but are both equally human?

Yes.

Yes.

I understand you believe there are two distinct person's. I agree

That one is called "the angel of Jehovah" I agree

An angel that allows himself to be addressed during missions on earth as Jehovah. I agree

The other sent sàid angel. I agree

Do you believe that both The Sender and the Angel are equally spirits (non fleshly intelligent beings) but not equal in power and position?

I believe that the Sender and the Angel are equally Jehovah because that's what the Bible says - they are both addressed as Jehovah. But they clearly have different roles. This seems to me clear both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

If I understand you correctly, you agree that it is possible for human persons to have different roles yet be equally human. Why do you think its impossible for Jehovah to be distinct persons with different roles (as is clear from the Scriptures I've cited) who are equally Jehovah?

[JehovahsWitness]

I believe that the Sender and the Angel are equally Jehovah

I didn't ask if they were "equally Jehovah" (whatever that means) I asked do you believe they are equal by that I mean

Do you believe they are equal in power and position?

[dakoski]

I believe that the Sender and the Angel are equally Jehovah

I didn't ask if they were "equally Jehovah" (whatever that means) I asked do you believe they are equal by that I mean

Do you believe they are equal in power and position?

We're talking past each other because we are talking about different forms of equality. As both Jehovah in the heavens and the angel of Jehovah are addressed as Jehovah - then they are equally Jehovah. In the same way male humans and female humans are both equally humans.

Do the angel of Jehovah and Jehovah in the heavens have the same role? Of course they don't. The angel of Jehovah is sent by Jehovah and reveals Jehovah to humans, he speaks with people face to face. Jehovah sends the angel of Jehovah and does not speak with people face to face.

In the same way a husband's role in the Bible is different from the wife's role. Does such a role make a wife less of a human being than her husband? Love doesn't think in these terms - its about mutual love and complementary service of one another.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the same way a husband's role in the Bible is different from the wife's role.

The wife's role is to submit to her husband as he has more authority than her. Husband and Wife (and children) are all 100% human but they are not equal.

Biblically, the husband has more physical power than his wife and more authority than his wife; the Husband being "head" the "Chief" "The boss" or however one wants to put it. The wife being the 2nd in Command, the "assistant" or in biblical terms "The Helper". All final decisions when it comes to the direction of the family lies with the husband not with the wife. They are not equal in authority , they They are not equal responsibilities, They are not equal "rank" They are not equal power.

Are you saying the relationship between these two different individuals is similar?

JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

The wife's role is to submit to her husband as he has more authority than her. Husband and Wife (and children) are all 100% human but they are not equal.

They are 100% equal in their shared humanity yet have distinct roles as husband and wife. Love is about mutual service and interdependence and their roles are equally valued before God. Your understanding of authority and greatness seem to be more rooted in Aristotelian understandings of God rather than the Biblical God.

[JehovahsWitness]

Your understanding of authority and greatness seem to be more rooted in Aristotelian understandings of God rather than the Biblical God.

EPHESIANS 5:22

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife,

1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV)


But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

“I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.� (1 Cor. 11:3)

While man and woman are human they are not equal in being the head of the family. Neither are the Father and Son equal in their roles. The trinity teaches both are equally God yet the scriptures do not support this. One is clearly God over the other.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

Yes. (I can't agree that they are "equally Jehovah" because I don't know what that means and I can't agree to what I can't understand.) But yes I agree that "The Angel" is like the wife and he submits and obeys to his superior The Sender. I agree that like a wife, this angels is the "assistant" not the head, not the boss, not the leader, but the 2nd in command.

So yes in heaven everyone is 100% equally SPIRIT, God The angels, The Angel, humans eventually given heavenly life ... all 100% ( equally) spirit just as all humans are 100% human. But just as in human families there is position and rank, and just as a husband is superior in authority and powerr to his wife, out of the two individuals in questiin, only one has the right to demand the other submits to him. , The Angel subjects himself to the Sender in all things, while The Sender subjects to no one and nobody.


We call the one that is superior in authority and power Almighty God ( obviously by definition there can only be one of these)

And the submissive lesser god we call Jesus.



JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the biblical, view above illustrates the relationship between The Sender and the Angel?

Yes, do you agree?

If so, you agree that the Father and the Son are equally Jehovah in the same way that the men and women are equally human? And that the Father and the Son have different roles like the man and the woman?

“I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.� (1 Cor. 11:3)

While man and woman are human they are not equal in being the head of the family. Neither is Father and Son. The trinity teaches both are equally God yet the scriptures do not support this. Nor does the the Bible teach that man and woman are equally the head.

Does the Bible teach that men and women are both human? If so, should you not also conclude that the Father and the Son are both YHWH? It seems to me to be the logic of the passage.

In the same way, the passage is teaching that men and women have different roles. Yes I agree the Father and Son have different roles.

Why accept one bit of the analogy and deny the other bit - aren't you missing the point of the analogy?