What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
RedEye
Scholar
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:23 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia

What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #1

Post by RedEye »

These are some lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar:
  • Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
It's a great question. What did Jesus actually sacrifice?

Christian doctrine has it that Jesus sacrificed his life in order to appease God the Father and gain forgiveness for the sins of mankind. But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die. All that happened, if anything, is that he shed his Earthly body and then ascended back to his place in heaven. Shedding a temporary body is no big deal for a god. Jesus is alive and well in heaven (and he will be making a second coming soon according to many).

If you are alive then you did not really die. It was a pretend death. I know some of you may argue that it was a real death of his Earthly body, but so what? He wasn't going to stay in that form forever and it was only a shell he was wearing over his divine nature. The plan was always for him to return to his Father. Human bodies die eventually anyway from old age. Jesus lost nothing essential to him.

I therefore put it to Christians that there was no actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

User avatar
jeremiah1five
Banned
Banned
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:17 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #2

Post by jeremiah1five »

RedEye wrote: These are some lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar:
  • Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
It's a great question. What did Jesus actually sacrifice?

Christian doctrine has it that Jesus sacrificed his life in order to appease God the Father and gain forgiveness for the sins of mankind. But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die. All that happened, if anything, is that he shed his Earthly body and then ascended back to his place in heaven. Shedding a temporary body is no big deal for a god. Jesus is alive and well in heaven (and he will be making a second coming soon according to many).

If you are alive then you did not really die. It was a pretend death. I know some of you may argue that it was a real death of his Earthly body, but so what? He wasn't going to stay in that form forever and it was only a shell he was wearing over his divine nature. The plan was always for him to return to his Father. Human bodies die eventually anyway from old age. Jesus lost nothing essential to him.

I therefore put it to Christians that there was no actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! I know! I know!

In order to fully understand Jesus' death we must first understand His birth:

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Now, do you fully understand His birth?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21137
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 794 times
Been thanked: 1128 times
Contact:

Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RedEye wrote: But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die.

WAS JESUS CREATED AS AN IMMORTAL BEING?
  • ♦ ANSWER No, biblically Jesus is never spoken of as being created immortal. While he had a prehuman existence, he was a spirit creature subject to death (like the angels). Immortality is only spoken of as being a reward for faithful spirit anointed humans (see 1 Cor 15:53,54) offered by the Almighty who Himself is immortal. Thus, when the bible speaks of Jesus being dead, it means he was actually dead (as in ceased to exist) and was resurrected (given back his life) three days later.


RELATED POSTS


Did Jesus REALLY die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 895#909895

Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280



NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs/opinions as one of Jehovah's Witnesses
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post #4

Post by Willum »

Well, nothing really.

He is allegedly all-knowing, so he already knew the suffering/sacrifice he made for us...
and can access it at any time.

I guess he was crucified. but if he hadn't spoken out against the commandments, he wouldn't have been.

He was allegedly dead for three days, so he gave up an extended weekend for us.

It doesn't seem like he gave up anything that would back up the claims...

Just another myth, busted.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11461
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 373 times

Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #5

Post by 1213 »

RedEye wrote:It's a great question. What did Jesus actually sacrifice?

Christian doctrine has it that Jesus sacrificed his life in order to appease God the Father and gain forgiveness for the sins of mankind. But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die. All that happened, if anything, is that he shed his Earthly body and then ascended back to his place in heaven. Shedding a temporary body is no big deal for a god. Jesus is alive and well in heaven (and he will be making a second coming soon according to many).
...
Jesus used his life on earth for the people, that is why it can be said he sacrificed his life for us. He could have all the kingdoms and could have been great earthly king, but instead was humble servant of God and used his life for our benefit.

And for your information, Jesus could forgive sins before his death:


The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.

Luke 5:21-25

And same right was given also to his disciples. So, death was not required for forgiveness.

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

One of the greatest heresies is that the forgiveness as only possible because of the death of Jesus.

Overcomer
Guru
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:44 am
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Post #6

Post by Overcomer »

RedEye wrote:
He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die.
Jesus came to earth as God Incarnate. That means that he came to earth as a being who was fully God and fully man. In theological terms, it's called the hypostatic union.

As God, Jesus is eternal. As man, he was not.

Therefore, it is incorrect to say Jesus was immortal and could not die. He did die on the cross, but didn't stay dead.

User avatar
StuartJ
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1027
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:46 am
Location: Australia
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #7

Post by StuartJ »

Overcomer wrote: RedEye wrote:
He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die.
Jesus came to earth as God Incarnate. That means that he came to earth as a being who was fully God and fully man. In theological terms, it's called the hypostatic union.

As God, Jesus is eternal. As man, he was not.

Therefore, it is incorrect to say Jesus was immortal and could not die. He did die on the cross, but didn't stay dead.
Just goes to show you CAN make this stuff meaning anything you want it to mean.

And throw in some fancy words ...

And plaster imagination on top of imagination ...

And worship this glittering fabrication you've built on evidence-free feet of clay.

It's worth remembering not a soul can demonstrate that there actually was a human Jesus ...

Let alone a hypostatic incarnate one.[/i]
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.

User avatar
StuartJ
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1027
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:46 am
Location: Australia
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #8

Post by StuartJ »

Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...

Political spin put on a failed messiahship.

Sacrifices are ritual events conducted by priests ...

NOT public executions by soldiers.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6627 times
Been thanked: 3222 times

Post #9

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 8 by StuartJ]
Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...
Makes me wonder. If Jesus had died of a common infection like the flu, would we still all be forgiven?

User avatar
jeremiah1five
Banned
Banned
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:17 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post #10

Post by jeremiah1five »

brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 8 by StuartJ]
Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...
Makes me wonder. If Jesus had died of a common infection like the flu, would we still all be forgiven?
No. Flu is a symptom. God went after the cause.
BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY: Where Bible and Christian Meet

Post Reply