Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

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Mithrae
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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Mithrae »

Jagella wrote:
Jagella wrote:Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?
No, of course not. As an atheist I can think about moral choices and don't need to blindly take the word of questionable characters like Moses that they speak for a god.
If you were there with the Israelites - having recently seen plagues on the Egyptians, Moses parting a sea, manna from heaven, the voice of God from a mountain top and a pillar of fire leading the way in the wilderness - presumably you would not be an atheist. Or, maybe you would, even then.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 20 by 1213]
have understood that treason in US is a crime and can be punished by death. Is it wrong in your opinion?
And I have understood that treason in the US is not something as simple as picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. Treason, in case you were curious, is defined in US law as
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

This is what honestly amazes me about you and certain other kinds of people. You have literally conflated picking up sticks with genocide and treason.
I think nice example of “treason� in modern day America is Julian Assange, who I think did good thing, but apparently is guilty to treason and could be even killed because of that. What do you think, what would Assange deserve? Is US law bad, if it gives penalty to Assange?
We are not talking about Assange. We are talking about a man who picked up sticks and then had rocks hurled at his face, and whether people today would be willing to do that.
By what I know, the gathering sticks broke the Shabbat rule and there is not rule that don’t gather sticks and gathering sticks was not probably the reason for the God’s judgment. It was probably that the person had despised the word of Yahweh. And Bible doesn’t say the gathering was the reason for the judgment.
The story is concise. We hear about a man who picks up sticks, he is dragged before the community, and "the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.� 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses."
We have nothing at all to tell us about the state of mind of the man. However, look at what this line of thinking has done to you. You are now basically calling the man evil, because he violated a rule, and you quite simply cannot allow yourself to think poorly of the rule itself...as that would mean you would be questioning God and that is a sin!
For you apparently, there is no such thing as a concept of extenuating circumstances, or compassion for a first offender.
I think the question was not really about the gathering sticks, but about is person righteous or not. And if we come back to the Julian Assange example. I think he did righteous act and therefore should not get penalty.
Unfortunately for you, you were not clear about this before. Before, in your previous comments on this thread, it was all about the rule itself, and not about the "righteousness" of the man.
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Post by Elijah John »

@ 1213 and JW. Do either of you believe in the principle that the punishment should fit the crime?

How does killing someone in such a cruel way as stoning fit the "crime" of picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

Even if such an activity is a "crime" in Israel's ancient theocracy, was Moses so unimaginative that he could think of no other penalty than the cruelest death for the offender?

This is no "wisdom of Solomon" response here, but that of a savage.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post by Jagella »

Zzyzx wrote:In real life I have always been a Maverick – “Unbranded animal, not of the herd�. With those same personality traits projected backward two thousand years, I would not likely have always obeyed orders any better than I did during military service (which resulted in some difficulty at times).
Obviously I'm not one to follow the crowd either. So I hope I would have resisted the barbarism of Moses. I don't see how I could have had the heart to kill the man described in Numbers 15.

Although this story may be a fable, it sends the message that nothing is so stupid or cruel that Yahweh won't order it and his followers must obey it.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Jagella »

Zzyzx wrote:Excellent illustration of evil perpetrated in the name of religion; and the error of blind obedience to religious (or any) dogma.
Some apologists might object to what we're saying here by stating: "Atheists do evil too!" I'd answer that yes, some atheists will do evil based on some ideology. I don't approve of that ideology either.
An excellent illustration also of idiotic rules and laws set forth in the name of obedience to religion
I cannot decide if laws like that of prohibiting work on the sabbath are more stupid than cruel or more cruel than stupid. The Jewish scriptures were written in a barbaric and superstitious age, and we should not be too surprised if people in that age created barbaric and irrational gods.

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Post by rikuoamero »

Jagella wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:In real life I have always been a Maverick – “Unbranded animal, not of the herd�. With those same personality traits projected backward two thousand years, I would not likely have always obeyed orders any better than I did during military service (which resulted in some difficulty at times).
Obviously I'm not one to follow the crowd either. So I hope I would have resisted the barbarism of Moses. I don't see how I could have had the heart to kill the man described in Numbers 15.

Although this story may be a fable, it sends the message that nothing is so stupid or cruel that Yahweh won't order it and his followers must obey it.
The takeaway from this thread I have is that, apart from the sheer barbarity of the killing of the man, is what looks to me to be a complete lack of thought on the part of those who answered yes. Go back and re-read their answers. It's all basically "This is a rule set by God...therefore if one violates it, kill 'em".
I will give 1213 props for putting some thought in his response, even if the answer of equating the picking up of sticks with genocide is completely idiotic. At least he tried. The others...? Not so much. Their mental examination of this situation, this hypothetical, begins and ends with the rule and the sentence...and to be honest, that is actually really scary. What happens in real life, if one of these people believe they hear God give a similar order?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Jagella
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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Jagella »

PinSeeker wrote:Keeping the Sabbath (remembering it and keeping it holy -- set apart) was very important as one of God's commandments. So there were very strict laws given by the Lord for keeping it. Putting the man to death served to teach the Israelites a very important lesson; that was one of the basic reasons for the civil law.
So your answer to the question for debate is yes, you would have stoned the man to death as a result of your allegiance to the Bible god.

But would you really? If the man to be executed was your father, brother, son, or good friend, would you still stone him? And what if that man was you--would you approve of your being executed?
But the civil law, since Jesus came, is no longer in effect:..(Hebrews 7)
Are you saying that Jesus did away with the cruel law of Moses? He said explicitly that he had not come to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17). So Hebrews 7 contradicts what Jesus is quoted as saying about the law. Hebrews 7 also contradicts what passages like Leviticus 16:29 clearly state:
This shall be a statute to you forever: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall deny yourselves, and shall do no work, neither the citizen nor the alien who resides among you.
The law of Moses as you see was never to result in "a setting aside of a former commandment" like Hebrews 7 says. But contradiction or not, it is good that the law of Moses is being set aside. Now if only we can set aside all of the other stupid and cruel laws in the Bible.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Jagella »

Elijah John wrote:And I would not participate in the stone-throwing, and I doubt Jesus would either. After all, he is the one who said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
I was with you up to this point. I don't believe that the gospel portrays Jesus as telling people not to follow the law of Moses because it was cruel or stupid. Rather, Jesus is portrayed as having the power to do and say whatever he wished to do or say. He was to have total power over all people, and that included Moses. So if he wished to set aside any Jewish law, he could do so at the drop of a hat.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Jagella »

Wootah wrote:I do not know what I fully think on this event but I would be happy to head to head debate this topic if you like.
That's why I started the thread--to debate. Go ahead and make your case that stoning the man in Numbers 15 was justified.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Jagella »

jgh7 wrote:If I was with the Israelites fresh out of Egypt with Moses, and God told us to kill someone who disobeyed rules which explicitly stated that the penalty for breaking such rules is death, then yeah I would.
It looks like I was wrong--many Christians have answered the question for debate in apparent honesty.

Would you stone the man regardless of who he was or how you may have known him, though? What if he was your son? Would you stone to death your own son?

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