Beliefs of the Church Fathers

[Matthew S Islam]

Peace.

I'm curious to learn more about the beliefs of the early Church fathers and how different Christians percieve them. Why do people cite the Church fathers anyways? Are they referenced for their historical value or are they somehow authoritative?

I remember hearing a preacher once claim that all of the Church fathers would be considered heretics by modern Trinitarian standards. But in all fairness I've also noticed some quotes wherein they don't appear to be 100% consistent with non-Trinitarians.

So who do they belong to?

[Matthew S Islam]

Please share any useful links on the issue.

Pro Arian:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subordinationism

Pro Trinitarian:

https://apostles-creed.org/confessional ... s-trinity/

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Matthew S]

They are referred to because they provide us with a historical record of how "the early church" evolved. They were the living link between the Apostles and the later believers and provide information on how the bible was compiled and preserved.

For better or worse they provide information about early Christianity



JW

[Menotu]

Peace.

I'm curious to learn more about the beliefs of the early Church fathers and how different Christians percieve them. Why do people cite the Church fathers anyways? Are they referenced for their historical value or are they somehow authoritative?

I remember hearing a preacher once claim that all of the Church fathers would be considered heretics by modern Trinitarian standards. But in all fairness I've also noticed some quotes wherein they don't appear to be 100% consistent with non-Trinitarians.

So who do they belong to?

No one alive today can say for sure what these dead mean thought or believed with 100% accuracy. The most they can honestly and legitimately say is what they think they believed/thought.
Saying otherwise surpasses arrogance and moves in to the realm of hilarity

[Checkpoint]

Peace.

I'm curious to learn more about the beliefs of the early Church fathers and how different Christians percieve them. Why do people cite the Church fathers anyways? Are they referenced for their historical value or are they somehow authoritative?

I remember hearing a preacher once claim that all of the Church fathers would be considered heretics by modern Trinitarian standards. But in all fairness I've also noticed some quotes wherein they don't appear to be 100% consistent with non-Trinitarians.

So who do they belong to?

No one alive today can say for sure what these dead mean thought or believed with 100% accuracy. The most they can honestly and legitimately say is what they think they believed/thought.
Saying otherwise surpasses arrogance and moves in to the realm of hilarity

Food for thought..

Would you say the same about when books of the Bible were written, and who wrote them?

Arrogance sometimes, hilarity occasionally, and supposition and bias often.

[onewithhim]

Peace.

I'm curious to learn more about the beliefs of the early Church fathers and how different Christians percieve them. Why do people cite the Church fathers anyways? Are they referenced for their historical value or are they somehow authoritative?

I remember hearing a preacher once claim that all of the Church fathers would be considered heretics by modern Trinitarian standards. But in all fairness I've also noticed some quotes wherein they don't appear to be 100% consistent with non-Trinitarians.

So who do they belong to?

No one alive today can say for sure what these dead mean thought or believed with 100% accuracy. The most they can honestly and legitimately say is what they think they believed/thought.
Saying otherwise surpasses arrogance and moves in to the realm of hilarity

We have many of the writings of the early church fathers, so we can get a good idea of what they believed. It's too bad that Ignatius has been divided into "shorter" and "longer" versions! We can compare what the fathers wrote with what the Scriptures actually say, and we can see when the church fathers began to veer away from the pure unadulterated teachings of Christ and the earliest disciples.


.

[brianbbs67]

Peace.

I'm curious to learn more about the beliefs of the early Church fathers and how different Christians percieve them. Why do people cite the Church fathers anyways? Are they referenced for their historical value or are they somehow authoritative?

I remember hearing a preacher once claim that all of the Church fathers would be considered heretics by modern Trinitarian standards. But in all fairness I've also noticed some quotes wherein they don't appear to be 100% consistent with non-Trinitarians.

So who do they belong to?

No one alive today can say for sure what these dead mean thought or believed with 100% accuracy. The most they can honestly and legitimately say is what they think they believed/thought.
Saying otherwise surpasses arrogance and moves in to the realm of hilarity

We have many of the writings of the early church fathers, so we can get a good idea of what they believed. It's too bad that Ignatius has been divided into "shorter" and "longer" versions! We can compare what the fathers wrote with what the Scriptures actually say, and we can see when the church fathers began to veer away from the pure unadulterated teachings of Christ and the earliest disciples.


.

I agree, when did they diverge by your estimation?

[Matthew S Islam]

[Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]

We have many of the writings of the early church fathers, so we can get a good idea of what they believed. It's too bad that Ignatius has been divided into "shorter" and "longer" versions! We can compare what the fathers wrote with what the Scriptures actually say, and we can see when the church fathers began to veer away from the pure unadulterated teachings of Christ and the earliest disciples

So are you of the view that the earliest Church Fathers were upon the truth? Would you feel comfortable identifying your beliefs with the exact same terms and explanations they used? Also, do the the Trinitarians just hand them over to you or do they read in their theology using the same quotes?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]

We have many of the writings of the early church fathers, so we can get a good idea of what they believed. It's too bad that Ignatius has been divided into "shorter" and "longer" versions! We can compare what the fathers wrote with what the Scriptures actually say, and we can see when the church fathers began to veer away from the pure unadulterated teachings of Christ and the earliest disciples

So are you of the view that the earliest Church Fathers were upon the truth? Would you feel comfortable identifying your beliefs with the exact same terms and explanations they used?

Yes, the earliest church fathers were onto the truth. There are Clement (A.D. 30-100), Polycarp (A.D. 65-100) and Ignatius (A.D. 30-107). Those are the earliest, and the only ones that can be trusted to be teaching what the Lord and his apostles taught.

I identify with their terms and explanations.

Clement: The First Epistle. "The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so by the command of God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ." (Chapter XLII)

Jesus and God are clearly two different persons, Jesus receiving his commands from God. There is no Trinity here, no equality of Jesus with God.


Polycarp: (The Epistle to the Philippians.) He also distinguishes between the two personages of Jesus and God. There is no sense of any Trinity or of equality between Father and Son. "Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied." He refers to those who "believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave him glory, and a throne at His right hand." (Chapter II)

So, it is clear that Polycarp, as well as Clement, see the Father and Christ as distinct individuals, and the Father = God.

"May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth..." (Chapter XII)


Ignatius: The Epistle to the Ephesians. (Longer version.) "Our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son." (Chapter VII)

No Trinity or equality there, either.

"Stand fast, brethren, in the faith of Jesus Christ, and in his love, in his passion, and in his resurrection. Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and 'the first-born of every creature.'" (Chapter XX)


Thus it looks to me, very plainly, that these earliest church fathers did not think of God as a Trinity, but distinguished clearly between "God" and "Christ."



.

[onewithhim]

Studying the earliest church fathers convinces those of us who want to know the truth of the matter that they did not view Jesus as God.

Jesus wasn't God until the 4th century A.D.