Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #81

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #80]

Whew! I don't know how you came to those conclusions, but they conflict with everything in the Bible. Let's just agree to disagree, and I pray that you can come to the point where 2 Corinthians 4:4 no longer applies to you.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #82

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
Sure, but notice that this passage does not say Jesus was made alive 'as a spirit', but rather 'in the spirit' -- or, perhaps better, 'in the Spirit.'

Historically, Christians have interpreted this verse in different ways. But we might turn to Paul, in Romans 8:9, to gain some perspective here:
Romans 8:9 wrote:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Obviously, Paul is not saying here that the Christians to whom he is writing have lost their flesh and been turned into spirits. Rather, to be "in the Spirit" means to have the Spirit of God dwelling within you.

He continues:
Romans 8:9b-11 wrote:
Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
For Paul, to be made alive in the Spirit, then, means to have your deceased mortal body resurrected to new life by the Spirit of God. It is not the assertion that at the resurrection you become (or Christ became) a spirit.

In fact, by inference, Paul is clearly saying here that, in the Resurrection, the Spirit gave Jesus' mortal body new life, rather than it being dissolved or discarded.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
Paul said as much in his letter to the Corinthians: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living person.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45.)
Okay, but we have to read this statement in context, giving attention to the original language, which takes us back to my earlier post:
1 Cor. 15:44-45 wrote:
It is sown a psychikos body; it is raised a pneumatikos body. If there is a psychikos body, there is also a pneumatikos body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living psyche"; the last Adam became a life-giving pneuma.
When we look at the text this way, it is clear that what Paul is contrasting here is 'soul' (psyche) and 'spirit' (pneuma). In this passage, he uses both of those nouns as well as adjectives derived from those nouns, literally 'soul-ish' (psychikos) and 'spirit-ish' (pneumatikos).

We can restate the passage as:
1 Cor. 15:44-45 wrote:
It is sown a soul-ish body; it is raised a spirit-ish body. If there is a soul-ish body, there is also a spirit-ish body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
What Paul is saying here is that all of us currently possess a 'soul-ish' body -- that is, a body animated by or given life by the soul, the natural 'breath of life' or 'life-force' that animates all living animals.

A person whose body is animated by the soul can himself be called a living soul, as Adam was in Genesis 2:7, which Paul quotes here.

But the body the Christian will have at the resurrection will be a 'spirit-ish' body -- that is, a body animated by or given life by the Spirit of God (as we just saw in Romans 8).

Since Christ's resurrected body is now animated by the Spirit -- and it is through Christ that the Spirit of God will, in turn, animate the Christian's resurrected body -- Paul can refer to Christ himself as a life-giving Spirit.

But, in calling Adam a "soul" and Christ a "Spirit," Paul is not suggesting here that they don't have bodies. He is, by inference, simply noting that they have different types of bodies. And like all of the other types of bodies Paul gives examples of in 1 Cor. 15 -- plants, animals, the sun, moon, and stars -- we should understand that a body -- even a resurrected one -- is physical.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #83

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
So Peter and Paul say Jesus was raised in the spirit, yet John seems to say he wasn't a spirit. How about 2 against 1? Majority wins? Just a little humor.
I'm actually willing to take seriously the idea that there are divergent views of Christ's resurrected body among the various authors of the New Testament.

But, if we want to harmonize these passages, then we need merely note, as I did above (see post #82), that to be 'raised in the Spirit' does not mean you are a spirit, and so Peter, Paul, John (and Luke!) are not at odds on that point.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
And he didn't say he "still" had the nail marks. It was my addition.
I appreciate that. But in that unguarded comment I think you have actually understood what is evident in the text itself: the risen Christ is showing the marks of his crucifixion precisely to convey that this is his crucified body brought back to life.

The interpretation you and Eloi have offered instead gives the impression that Christ is being deceptive. He's a spirit but tells the disciples he's not a spirit. He shows them the wounds of his crucifixion, but that's not actually the body that was crucified.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
Jesus just wanted Thomas to believe that he was risen.
Agreed! In the first century, the idea of resurrection entailed your mortal body coming back to life in some fashion, so it makes sense that Thomas would want to confirm that Jesus' body was really raised from the dead.

The idea that Jesus' body was dissolved and he was recreated as a spirit is, in that way, rather odd. Even if, for the sake of argument, we accept that's what the early Christians believed, no one in the first century (Jew, Christian, or pagan) would have called that 'resurrection'.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
Your idea of a "glorified" physical body that can go through doors is a bit much. That's the first time I've heard that.
This is not my idea, this is what orthodox Christians have taught for nearly two thousand years (see post #27).

You might stop and ask yourself why it is that the sources you've read on this topic have failed to properly represent the orthodox view.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #84

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:04 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #80]

Whew! I don't know how you came to those conclusions, but they conflict with everything in the Bible. Let's just agree to disagree, and I pray that you can come to the point where 2 Corinthians 4:4 no longer applies to you.
.
It is the "many" on the wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). On the other hand, your false prophet's false gospel of grace, is antithetical to the message of Yeshua, and the whole of the Law and the prophets. The ones escaping drinking from the cup of God's anger, are those who "keep the commandments", not those who nail them to the cross (Revelation 14:10-12). Paul has his "many" followers, but like lemmings, they seem to miss the turn in the road. As you are adding leaven (hypocrisy) to the bread of life, your message provides neither nourishment nor healing to the sheep, which leads to eating judgment (Ezekiel 34:16). Apart from 2 Corinthians 4:2, it is Paul who uses fraud in his preaching, and portrays himself a Gentile to the Gentiles, and a Pharisee of Pharisee to the Jews. Paul's message is conflich with the Law and the prophets, and the message of Yeshua. To build your house, you quote Paul, and his worthless shepherd Peter, and now that we are at the "end of the age", Paul's lawlessness and Peter's Stumbling Blocks will be removed (Matthew 13:41) along with their agents.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #85

Post by onewithhim »

historia wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
Sure, but notice that this passage does not say Jesus was made alive 'as a spirit', but rather 'in the spirit' -- or, perhaps better, 'in the Spirit.'
But Jesus was put to death IN the flesh......how do you understand that? Perhaps the same way we should understand IN the spirit. He had a body of flesh when he was killed, and then he had a body of spirit when he was resurrected. It stands up to scrutiny, unless you want to play around with smoke and mirrors.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #86

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:32 pm
historia wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
Sure, but notice that this passage does not say Jesus was made alive 'as a spirit', but rather 'in the spirit' -- or, perhaps better, 'in the Spirit.'
But Jesus was put to death IN the flesh......how do you understand that?
It just means his mortal, earthly life came to an end.

As I said, Christians have historically interpreted this passage in different ways, and it can even be translated differently.

But the interpretation I find the most compelling is the one that takes seriously the fact that the expression "in the flesh" -- and related expressions like "according to the flesh" and "flesh and blood" -- are idioms.

Their usage elsewhere in the New Testament (as we saw above with Romans 8:9 and Matthew 16:17) shows they don't refer literally to one's muscles and tissue, as such.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:32 pm
Perhaps the same way we should understand IN the spirit.
Indeed, they are both idioms.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #87

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:14 pm
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:32 pm
historia wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:38 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:41 pm
The Scriptures are clear: Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
Sure, but notice that this passage does not say Jesus was made alive 'as a spirit', but rather 'in the spirit' -- or, perhaps better, 'in the Spirit.'
But Jesus was put to death IN the flesh......how do you understand that?
It just means his mortal, earthly life came to an end.

Jesus never said, or even hinted, that ONLY "his mortal, earthly life came to an end".

This is what he said to John:

Rev. 1:17 (...) “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave."

... and Paul said to the Romans:

Rom. 6:8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him. 10 For the death that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time, but the life that he lives, he lives with reference to God. 11 Likewise you, consider yourselves to be dead with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.
historia wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:14 pmAs I said, Christians have historically interpreted this passage in different ways, and it can even be translated differently.
(...) Indeed, they are both idioms.
Every idiomatic expression has a very precise meaning. According to the "historical interpretation" or TRADITION of your own church, what would it mean for Paul to say that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh"?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #88

Post by Eloi »

There are several reasons why many religionists cannot grasp the idea of the spiritual resurrection of Jesus. Some are:

1) they believe that death is leaving a body and staying alive in some kind of invisible figure

2) they believe that the resurrection is to give a material body to that invisible figure that was still alive in another "dimension"

3) They don't realize that although authentic spirits, like angels, are invisible, they also have a spirit body.

Some interesting questions for analysis:

if a dead person is still alive in spirit without needing to be resurrected:

a) can he have contact with angels and other non-human spirit beings and move around in that "dimension"?

b) then why do they need to be resurrected? What is the meaning of the resurrection in this ideological-philosophical framework?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #89

Post by Revelations won »

Greetings to all respondents,

“Eloi said:

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

My response: The following is your “private interpretation and is not supported by scripture.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:




My next response: You incorrectly quoted 1 Timothy 3:16

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’


My response: KJV 1 Timothy3:
16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

My response: According to the KJV it is quoted thus:

KJV9:
14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

My response to the above:

KJV 15:
44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Perhaps a clear understanding of the above may shed further light on the subject)

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...


My response:

KJV 1 Peter:
12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13
And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

You should be aware of what Peter is teaching here in 1 Peter.

Indeed he was put to death in the body, but the body was also resurrected and rejoined to his spirit when he went to preach unto the spirits in the spirit prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah.

You should also remember the he told Mary to touch him not for he had not yet ascended unto his Father.


Matthew 28:
9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10
Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.


Luke 24:
37
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43
And he took it, and did eat before them.


KJV 20:
16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

My response: We should also remember that ALL POWER WAS GIVEN HIM ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN. Having said that it is obvious that HE WAS GOD THE SON. For all judgment was given unto him. I would ask the question “ are men to be judged by GOD or Man?”

KJV John 21:
25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

My response: “I would also ask the question regarding the above quote. If all these other things which Jesus did were revealed today, would you accept or reject them?”

I also have 2 additional questions for you to answer.

Does God the Father have a body of flesh and bones?

2. Does Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones?


Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #90

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #89]

No, neither the Father nor Jesus have bodies of flesh and bones. The scripture says that two things cannot be in the spirit realm: (1) FLESH and (2) blood. Flesh cannot be there, as well as blood. So the tricky smoke and mirrors viewpoint about the bones doesn't work. Blood can't be there, bones can't be there, and neither can flesh.

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