Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Capbook]

to believers, faith is a requirement.
to who died without hearing the gospel, work applies. Non hearing - unable to believe.
but to all who hear the gospel, faith is a requirement.

I already got that. Faith is not THE standard. Why? Apparently, some can still get there without faith. Which means, it's not THE standard. Hence, we can explore answer C). What constitutes THE standard in answer C)? What 'works' and/or 'acts' are required and/or mandatory?

Also, why be a Christian, in the first place, if faith is not required? Why not just perform necessary works/acts?

ALL who HEAR the gospel, Faith is the standard.
ALL who HEAR the gospel should ought be a Christian
ALL who HEAR the gospel but reject it. works is not applicable. Faith is required.
I know you yourself HEAR the gospel but tried to reject it. God is waiting of your faith. Your work is not required.
I am sorry that my belief is not confined to your made choices.
And I am sorry also if I am mistaken to think of you as an atheist.

[POI]

ALL who HEAR the gospel, Faith is the standard.
ALL who HEAR the gospel should ought be a Christian
ALL who HEAR the gospel but reject it. works is not applicable. Faith is required.
I know you yourself HEAR the gospel but tried to reject it. God is waiting of your faith. Your work is not required.
I am sorry that my belief is not confined to your made choices.
And I am sorry also if I am mistaken to think of you as an atheist.

Belief is not a choice. Further, sounds like you are saying that believers are absolved from being held accountable for "morality", because they have faith instead.

It also sounds like only the ones who have never heard of Jesus are held accountable for "morality." Odd?

[Capbook]

ALL who HEAR the gospel, Faith is the standard.
ALL who HEAR the gospel should ought be a Christian
ALL who HEAR the gospel but reject it. works is not applicable. Faith is required.
I know you yourself HEAR the gospel but tried to reject it. God is waiting of your faith. Your work is not required.
I am sorry that my belief is not confined to your made choices.
And I am sorry also if I am mistaken to think of you as an atheist.

Belief is not a choice. Further, sounds like you are saying that believers are absolved from being held accountable for "morality", because they have faith instead.

It also sounds like only the ones who have never heard of Jesus are held accountable for "morality." Odd?

I just would like re-phrase it. Faith is a choice to every believer and good works is the result of faith.
And those who died that never heard the gospel are judge by their works.
I will not use morality as it is problematic, it has no clear definition of boundary which is good or bad.
I remember a friend who box a schoolmate because he steps on his shoe.

[POI]

I just would like re-phrase it.

Faith is a choice to every believer

I can get on board here if we agree what you mean here by the term 'faith'. Do you mean 'faith' means something to the effect of... I choose to place my hope and/or trust that Jesus died for us, despite the fact that there exists possible insufficient evidence to suggest that he really did? Meaning, I apply trust/hope in spite of possibly lacking clear evidence to suggest that he really did.

good works is the result of faith. And those who died that never heard the gospel are judge by their works.

The Bible states our "works" or "deeds" fall short. You prior response states, more than once, that Jesus would judge one, based upon their 'works', if they never heard of Jesus. What then constitutes enough 'good works/deeds', especially since the Bible says your works alone are like filthy rags? (i.e.):

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is. 64:6

I will not use morality as it is problematic, it has no clear definition of boundary which is good or bad.

Not for the Christian. Good is whatever God deems good. Bad is whatever Good deems bad. And all in between. Meaning, if it's allowed by God, it can be allowed by humans. I think you get the gist here...

Sounds like you are stating that these 'good' (works/acts/deeds/etc.) no longer become a point of Jesus's judgment, as long as you instead believe? This is what IS problematic logically. As I stated prior, belief is not a choice, but 'faith' could be. If one should happen to really believe Jesus died for them, they are no longer also held accountable for doing enough works/deeds/other.

[Capbook]

I just would like re-phrase it.

Faith is a choice to every believer

I can get on board here if we agree what you mean here by the term 'faith'. Do you mean 'faith' means something to the effect of... I choose to place my hope and/or trust that Jesus died for us, despite the fact that there exists possible insufficient evidence to suggest that he really did? Meaning, I apply trust/hope in spite of possibly lacking clear evidence to suggest that he really did.

good works is the result of faith. And those who died that never heard the gospel are judge by their works.

The Bible states our "works" or "deeds" fall short. You prior response states, more than once, that Jesus would judge one, based upon their 'works', if they never heard of Jesus. What then constitutes enough 'good works/deeds', especially since the Bible says your works alone are like filthy rags? (i.e.):

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is. 64:6

I will not use morality as it is problematic, it has no clear definition of boundary which is good or bad.

Not for the Christian. Good is whatever God deems good. Bad is whatever Good deems bad. And all in between. Meaning, if it's allowed by God, it can be allowed by humans. I think you get the gist here...

Sounds like you are stating that these 'good' (works/acts/deeds/etc.) no longer become a point of Jesus's judgment, as long as you instead believe? This is what IS problematic logically. As I stated prior, belief is not a choice, but 'faith' could be. If one should happen to really believe Jesus died for them, they are no longer also held accountable for doing enough works/deeds/other.

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.
There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.
As one says; " If God does not exist, then everything is permissible".

God judges us by our works.
Good works is the result that we are saved. Eph 2:8-10.
Bad works is salvation lost.

[TRANSPONDER]

I just would like re-phrase it.

Faith is a choice to every believer

I can get on board here if we agree what you mean here by the term 'faith'. Do you mean 'faith' means something to the effect of... I choose to place my hope and/or trust that Jesus died for us, despite the fact that there exists possible insufficient evidence to suggest that he really did? Meaning, I apply trust/hope in spite of possibly lacking clear evidence to suggest that he really did.

good works is the result of faith. And those who died that never heard the gospel are judge by their works.

The Bible states our "works" or "deeds" fall short. You prior response states, more than once, that Jesus would judge one, based upon their 'works', if they never heard of Jesus. What then constitutes enough 'good works/deeds', especially since the Bible says your works alone are like filthy rags? (i.e.):

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is. 64:6

I will not use morality as it is problematic, it has no clear definition of boundary which is good or bad.

Not for the Christian. Good is whatever God deems good. Bad is whatever Good deems bad. And all in between. Meaning, if it's allowed by God, it can be allowed by humans. I think you get the gist here...

Sounds like you are stating that these 'good' (works/acts/deeds/etc.) no longer become a point of Jesus's judgment, as long as you instead believe? This is what IS problematic logically. As I stated prior, belief is not a choice, but 'faith' could be. If one should happen to really believe Jesus died for them, they are no longer also held accountable for doing enough works/deeds/other.

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.
There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.
As one says; " If God does not exist, then everything is permissible".

God judges us by our works.
Good works is the result that we are saved. Eph 2:8-10.
Bad works is salvation lost.

Wrong in almost every respect. I more or less agree on Faith, though you narrow it to Christian Faith as obviously it rules out the other Faiths, Right? There is little or no evidence from ancient sources outside of the Bible that Jesus (of Nazareth) actually existed. Though I have internal evidence that persuades me he really existed.

The effort in Josephus is known to be at least partially a forgery, so why it can't be totally a forgery I do not know. Tacitus is evidently just repeating the Christian claims and is not saying what he knows himself or what he got from Roman records, or he would have known that Pilate was a Prefect, not a procurator. The rest of the extra - biblical ancient record are of little or no evidential value.

What a miserable gift is this grace, if he forgives them their sins just because they never read his book, why damn those who have read his book but don't match up to its' demands? Why not issue grace to all? I know it is a way of evading clear injustice, but it makes nonsense of the whole scam of needing to be a Christian in order to be saved. If he wanted to save everyone, God should have allowed all of us to not know about him.

(cue: "God can do what he likes" That just adds brutality to injustice.)

Laws of God make no sense. Laws of God say slavery is ok. Updated laws in the Sermon say nothing to show that slavery is bad. The advice about how to live are bad advice. Nobody lives like the birds and the flowers, because they know that God will not provide.

Secular morality can do without the concept of (Biblical) sin. It is what it is and (historically) Christianity has not made man less sinful, but rather more so by inventing more things to fight and persecute over.

The idea that I think you imply - that being saved makes one to be moral is unsound. And you know it because you know bad works loses salvation. You know and I know that works cannot save because we are all sinners deserving of death because of the fall and innate sin. Only Faith (in the right religion) saves, unless apparently we never heard of the religion we should have faith in.

But (as Paul found out) Faith does not make people behave well, so the threat of losing Grace is needed, and we then get the Christian dilemma of how much forgiveness can be granted without looking bad and frankly a two tier justice in favor of Christianity, and whether they should be thrown under the bus for the sake of Christianity not looking bad.

None of those work or makes any sense, and I'm glad every day that I can accept human beans as they are and try to do better, but not expect perfection and i don't have to try to excuse, much less preach falsehoods, about a system that makes no sense and has no validity.

[POI]

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.

Recap:

If you have ever heard of Jesus, answer B) is required, and that is all that is necessary?
If you have never heard of Jesus, answer C) is required, and that is all that is necessary?

There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Even if this were true, while also knowing the 'golden paragraph' was plagiarized in his writings, all this would verify is that Jesus lived and was killed. Nothing more....

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Answer A)? No one deserves it, according to the Bible. Which means He assigns unconditional grace for all.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.

Please explain when you state what you stated above in bold?

God judges us by our works.

Answer C) then is required for all? But the Bible states our works/deeds will always fall short.

[Capbook]

I just would like re-phrase it.

Faith is a choice to every believer

I can get on board here if we agree what you mean here by the term 'faith'. Do you mean 'faith' means something to the effect of... I choose to place my hope and/or trust that Jesus died for us, despite the fact that there exists possible insufficient evidence to suggest that he really did? Meaning, I apply trust/hope in spite of possibly lacking clear evidence to suggest that he really did.

good works is the result of faith. And those who died that never heard the gospel are judge by their works.

The Bible states our "works" or "deeds" fall short. You prior response states, more than once, that Jesus would judge one, based upon their 'works', if they never heard of Jesus. What then constitutes enough 'good works/deeds', especially since the Bible says your works alone are like filthy rags? (i.e.):

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is. 64:6

I will not use morality as it is problematic, it has no clear definition of boundary which is good or bad.

Not for the Christian. Good is whatever God deems good. Bad is whatever Good deems bad. And all in between. Meaning, if it's allowed by God, it can be allowed by humans. I think you get the gist here...

Sounds like you are stating that these 'good' (works/acts/deeds/etc.) no longer become a point of Jesus's judgment, as long as you instead believe? This is what IS problematic logically. As I stated prior, belief is not a choice, but 'faith' could be. If one should happen to really believe Jesus died for them, they are no longer also held accountable for doing enough works/deeds/other.

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.
There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.
As one says; " If God does not exist, then everything is permissible".

God judges us by our works.
Good works is the result that we are saved. Eph 2:8-10.
Bad works is salvation lost.

Wrong in almost every respect. I more or less agree on Faith, though you narrow it to Christian Faith as obviously it rules out the other Faiths, Right? There is little or no evidence from ancient sources outside of the Bible that Jesus (of Nazareth) actually existed. Though I have internal evidence that persuades me he really existed.

The effort in Josephus is known to be at least partially a forgery, so why it can't be totally a forgery I do not know. Tacitus is evidently just repeating the Christian claims and is not saying what he knows himself or what he got from Roman records, or he would have known that Pilate was a Prefect, not a procurator. The rest of the extra - biblical ancient record are of little or no evidential value.

What a miserable gift is this grace, if he forgives them their sins just because they never read his book, why damn those who have read his book but don't match up to its' demands? Why not issue grace to all? I know it is a way of evading clear injustice, but it makes nonsense of the whole scam of needing to be a Christian in order to be saved. If he wanted to save everyone, God should have allowed all of us to not know about him.

(cue: "God can do what he likes" That just adds brutality to injustice.)

Laws of God make no sense. Laws of God say slavery is ok. Updated laws in the Sermon say nothing to show that slavery is bad. The advice about how to live are bad advice. Nobody lives like the birds and the flowers, because they know that God will not provide.

Secular morality can do without the concept of (Biblical) sin. It is what it is and (historically) Christianity has not made man less sinful, but rather more so by inventing more things to fight and persecute over.

The idea that I think you imply - that being saved makes one to be moral is unsound. And you know it because you know bad works loses salvation. You know and I know that works cannot save because we are all sinners deserving of death because of the fall and innate sin. Only Faith (in the right religion) saves, unless apparently we never heard of the religion we should have faith in.

But (as Paul found out) Faith does not make people behave well, so the threat of losing Grace is needed, and we then get the Christian dilemma of how much forgiveness can be granted without looking bad and frankly a two tier justice in favor of Christianity, and whether they should be thrown under the bus for the sake of Christianity not looking bad.

None of those work or makes any sense, and I'm glad every day that I can accept human beans as they are and try to do better, but not expect perfection and i don't have to try to excuse, much less preach falsehoods, about a system that makes no sense and has no validity.

Yes, I mean Christian Faith in my spiritual journey but I don't rule out other beliefs also.
Today scholars agree that a Jewish man called Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea and the subsequent Herodian tetrarchy in the 1st century CE, upon whose life and teachings Christianity was later constructed,[note 1] but a distinction is made by scholars between 'the Jesus of history' and 'the Christ of faith'. (from Wikipedia)

God's grace are given to those who chose Him by faith that results good works.
God's grace I believe is not available to those who hear and read His book but doesn't believe, and/or those whose belief but consistently do bad works.
God's grace I believe available to those unable to chose Him by faith, and measured them by their good/bad works.

Laws of God are guidance to His people. Slavery specially to His chosen people were sort of punishments when they disobey, rebel against Him or turn away from Him.

Secular morality doesn't have a clear boundary what is good or bad. It doesn't know what sin is.
More so to Dostoyevsky statement, "If God does not exist, then everything is permissible".
So where is secular morality there?

If a Christian believer always seek guidance from the HS, he may be sinless by not choosing his own desire.
He may be become perfect, it is because of Jesus through the Holy Spirit not by the man's own doing.

You say, "None of those work or makes any sense, and I'm glad every day that I can accept human beans as they are and try to do better, but not expect perfection and i don't have to try to excuse, much less preach falsehoods, about a system that makes no sense and has no validity".
.............Yes, because if God does not exist, then everything is permissible.

[Capbook]

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.

Recap:

If you have ever heard of Jesus, answer B) is required, and that is all that is necessary?
If you have never heard of Jesus, answer C) is required, and that is all that is necessary?

There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Even if this were true, while also knowing the 'golden paragraph' was plagiarized in his writings, all this would verify is that Jesus lived and was killed. Nothing more....

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Answer A)? No one deserves it, according to the Bible. Which means He assigns unconditional grace for all.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.

Please explain when you state what you stated above in bold?

God judges us by our works.

Answer C) then is required for all? But the Bible states our works/deeds will always fall short.

First of all, I am sorry that my belief is not confined to your made choices.

Another evidence that Jesus existed. "Today scholars agree that a Jewish man called Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea and the subsequent Herodian tetrarchy in the 1st century CE, upon whose life and teachings Christianity was later constructed,[note 1] but a distinction is made by scholars between 'the Jesus of history' and 'the Christ of faith'. (from Wikipedia)

Yes no one is deserving of God's grace, that is why I say "undeserving sinners".

Can an atheist who believe in secular morality know and believe sin?

All works/deeds always fall short before of God, Yes, but God's grace is immeasurable.

[TRANSPONDER]

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

Yes, faith is my belief that Jesus died for me a sinner. Giving us a hope to once again get connected to God.

Recap:

If you have ever heard of Jesus, answer B) is required, and that is all that is necessary?
If you have never heard of Jesus, answer C) is required, and that is all that is necessary?

There is also evidence from ancient sources, such as the writings of Josephus, that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure who was crucified by the Romans.

Even if this were true, while also knowing the 'golden paragraph' was plagiarized in his writings, all this would verify is that Jesus lived and was killed. Nothing more....

Grace of God, a gift to undeserving sinners specially to those who were not able to hear His word.

Answer A)? No one deserves it, according to the Bible. Which means He assigns unconditional grace for all.

Laws of God clearly define what is good and what is bad. Morality does not even know what sin is.

Please explain when you state what you stated above in bold?

God judges us by our works.

Answer C) then is required for all? But the Bible states our works/deeds will always fall short.

First of all, I am sorry that my belief is not confined to your made choices.

Another evidence that Jesus existed. "Today scholars agree that a Jewish man called Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea and the subsequent Herodian tetrarchy in the 1st century CE, upon whose life and teachings Christianity was later constructed,[note 1] but a distinction is made by scholars between 'the Jesus of history' and 'the Christ of faith'. (from Wikipedia)

Yes no one is deserving of God's grace, that is why I say "undeserving sinners".

Can an atheist who believe in secular morality know and believe sin?

All works/deeds always fall short before of God, Yes, but God's grace is immeasurable.

Dear dear, you quite skipped over this: 'but a distinction is made by scholars between 'the Jesus of history' and 'the Christ of faith'. (from Wikipedia) Which means there was an actual Jesus, but he is not like the Jesus of Christianity.

I do credit a real Jesus as more likely than an invented one. But is totally different from the gospel Jesus which (I argue) is based on Paul's teachings, not Paul being based on Jesus'teachings. This is of course open to debate.

Well if God's grace was so immeasurable, He'd just forgive us all and make us saved. Wouldn't he? Cue excuses.

An atheist (or this one) does not recognise the Christian idea of sin, but I (and we) are of course aware of behavioural problems and an ideal better situation we can aspire to but find it difficult to work towards.

But I don't accept that religion is the answer, if anything secular morality has made for a generally better human situation. I know it doesn't seem like it :)but it is compared to say 200 years ago where atheism was hardly argued about. If anything religion made things worse. No, the morality argument does not make a case for God and hasn't ever since the debate started on the internet around the 80's.