What if Adam and Eve Had Resisted...?

[William]

IF Adam and Eve had resisted the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit, would they have been permitted to do so eventually?

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #76]

I do not see the relevance of any of these questions. What is your point?

Perhaps you have your organized religion glasses on. Such will likely have to be removed in order for relevance to be seen beyond what religion reveals.
Meantime, I am confident that their are those personalities among the readership, who do see the relevance of my questions, re the point being made.

The fruit goes wherever YHVH propels it to. On Water or on Land, it's all the same thing going on...

Oh-kay.


Alrighty then.... well, thanks for sharing.

Stay Tuned.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to William in post #67]

I suggested no such thing (as the fruit becoming icons).

What your answer describes, is the use of icon's in order to be reminders - "testimony of A&E's love for YHVH".

As something that would "always be a witness for them that they loved and respected YHVH to time indefinite."

Q: Why would any personality in communion with YHVH require something [icons] outside of their self to remind them they are in communion with YHVH?

The reason folk resort to religious icons is because they are attempting to gain that communion with YHVH through those mediums.

Since it was you who made the suggestion, I simply showed what your suggestion actually represented.

Oh please. The fruit might never have even been seen by people who knew it was there but didn't place the fruit in the relic category. Everyone knew that as long as Adam and Eve existed, the fruit would certainly still be on the tree.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #67]

I suggested no such thing (as the fruit becoming icons).

What your answer describes, is the use of icon's in order to be reminders - "testimony of A&E's love for YHVH".

As something that would "always be a witness for them that they loved and respected YHVH to time indefinite."

Q: Why would any personality in communion with YHVH require something [icons] outside of their self to remind them they are in communion with YHVH?

The reason folk resort to religious icons is because they are attempting to gain that communion with YHVH through those mediums.

Since it was you who made the suggestion, I simply showed what your suggestion actually represented.

Oh please. The fruit might never have even been seen by people who knew it was there but didn't place the fruit in the relic category. Everyone knew that as long as Adam and Eve existed, the fruit would certainly still be on the tree.

What 'people' are you speaking of, when you write, 'everybody knew'? How is the supposed viewpoint of these supposed people relevant to answering the OPQ in the manner that you have answered it?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #1]

The Catholic church teaches that Adam and Eve already knew what good and evil were. they did not know the consequences. Their sin was disobeying God, which they knew they ought to do.

However, even if Adam and Eve never fell, God would still have incarnated to make himself relatable.

[Miles]

[Replying to William in post #1]

The Catholic church teaches that Adam and Eve already knew what good and evil were. they did not know the consequences. Their sin was disobeying God, which they knew they ought to do.

Yup, plus other things the Catholic church teaches without actual Biblical say-so:

Mary dodged the bullet
The belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. The Immaculate Conception.


You can do anything horrible as long as you’re really, really sorry.
The belief that an ordained priest has the power to absolve people of their sins committed after baptism and reconciled with the Christian community, through Confession.


Yummy! Yummy!
The belief that bread and wine consumed during communion are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. Transubstantiation


Out damned spot! Out, I say!
The belief in demons and other evil spiritual entities which can be evicted from a person or place which they are believed to have possessed through Exorcism.


Just as is my posting here
The belief that, under certain circumstances, the pope is infallible (that is, he can not make a mistake). Papal Infallibility

However, even if Adam and Eve never fell, God would still have incarnated to make himself relatable.

Which raises the question, then why wait 4,000 ± years before making himself available?


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[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Miles in post #85]

You can do anything horrible as long as you’re really, really sorry.
The belief that an ordained priest has the power to absolve people of their sins committed after baptism and reconciled with the Christian community, through Confession.

I could address each one of your false claims, but I think addressing this one will be enough to show that you lack understanding of the church.

The church has never taught that you can do whatever sin you want. In fact, it teaches that even if you are forgiven, there is still punishment, thus purgatory.

Priests having the power to forgive sins is in the bible. Jesus told the disciples they can forgive sins.

John 20: 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

That power was handed down as we see in Clement of Rome first letter chapters 40-46.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #85]

You can do anything horrible as long as you’re really, really sorry.
The belief that an ordained priest has the power to absolve people of their sins committed after baptism and reconciled with the Christian community, through Confession.

I could address each one of your false claims, but I think addressing this one will be enough to show that you lack understanding of the church.

The church has never taught that you can do whatever sin you want.

And I never said it did, unless one is so naive as to take my introductory remarks to each example seriously. However, Confession does appear to do just that; absolve one of any sin that's been committed.

"The Sacrament of Penance (also commonly called the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession) is one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church (known in Eastern Christianity as sacred mysteries), in which the faithful are absolved from sins committed after baptism and reconciled with the Christian community. During reconciliation mortal sins must be confessed and venial sins may be confessed for devotional reasons. According to the dogma and unchanging practice of the church, only those ordained as priests may grant absolution."
source

In fact, it teaches that even if you are forgiven, there is still punishment, thus purgatory.

Then why bother with such a toothless forgiveness in the first place? Ah yes, appearances. One of those ploys to keep the pews filled.

Priests having the power to forgive sins is in the bible. Jesus told the disciples they can forgive sins.

John 20: 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

So priests see fit to elevate themselves to a position equal to Jesus's 12 disciples. How convenient, to say nothing of stupendously arrogant.

That power was handed down as we see in Clement of Rome first letter chapters 40-46.

A power that doesn't come near to having the endorsement accorded Biblical writings. A "letter" that is nothing but:

"Part of the Apostolic Fathers collection, 1 and 2 Clement are not usually considered to be part of the canonical New Testament."
source

But as long as you've picked one of my examples to debunk, let me pick a Catholic church teaching to debunk, the Immaculate Conception.

(Note that my examples were "other things the Catholic church teaches without actual Biblical say-so" By "say-so" I mean a clear, unequivocal,
declaration of the example, rather than some vague allusion that might be interpreted as bearing on the subject.)

So, show us where in the Bible there is a clear, unequivocal, declaration of the Immaculate Conception. Book, Chapter, and verse will do.

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[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Miles in post #87]

the church was never built upon only written words, but also oral tradition. Even Bart Ehman teaches this and he is an atheist.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #87]

the church was never built upon only written words, but also oral tradition. Even Bart Ehman teaches this and he is an atheist.

And that's my point. Whereas other denominations base almost all of their dogmas on Biblical declarations, (not that this makes them true) Catholicism makes up a lot of theirs as they best suit its appetite, which, of course, is their prerogative, but it's hardly inspiring or compelling.

"'The Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.' Not that we have any proof, or even evidence, but because we say so."

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[William]

[Replying to Miles in post #87]

the church was never built upon only written words, but also oral tradition. Even Bart Ehman teaches this and he is an atheist.

And that's my point. Whereas other denominations base almost all of their dogmas on Biblical declarations, (not that this makes them true) Catholicism makes up a lot of theirs as they best suit its appetite, which, of course, is their prerogative, but it's hardly inspiring or compelling.

"'The Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception.' Not that we have any proof, or even evidence, but because we say so."

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Just wondering if you guys are going to tie this stuff in with the Thread Subject?