Who has seen God?

[Rose2020]

Apparently over 70 people in one go.
This is according to Exodus chapter 24, verses 9 - 12.
So is this clear, that those elders along with Moses actually saw the face of God and even ate and drank in His presence?

I had thought only Moses got that close to God who took great precautions earlier about this.

[Miles]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

Well, you are giving me the Jehovah's Witnesses perspective. It is one view, but I don't go with it. This was not a vision, visions are different, they are symbolic and dreamlike, though real and valid. If it was a collective vision, it would say so?

I think if the Bible says they all saw God, then they did. I would like to hear other opinions too.

Good for you for understanding what was written and not trying to pry some self serving interpretation out of it. .. The reason it says what it does is because it's what god wanted readers of Exodus 24:911 to understand, not what someone could reshape so as to fit in their theology. As I've pointed out, what is said to have happened in plain English does not allow for any of the the elders to see a VISION, a ludicrous extrapolation at best and a dishonest one at worst.

And don't be fooled into thinking JehovahsWitness agrees that the elders did not see a vision, but actually saw god with their own eyes by his remark "In short their new standing allowed them to get close enough to "see" God without being killed." Please note the quotation marks around the word "see." They indicate the word is qualified in some way so as to distinguish it from its common definitions. A qualified definition that no doubt allows for a vision, as in

vision
noun
vi·​sion | \ ˈvi-zhən

2a : something seen in a dream, trance, or ecstasy especially :esp. a supernatural appearance that conveys a revelation
b : a thought, concept, or object formed by the imagination
c : a manifestation to the senses of something immaterial

3a : the act or power of imagination
c: direct mystical awareness of the supernatural

Nope, considering what is said in verse 11, "All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them," I see this as more of an embarrassment for JW, which, considering his avoidance in dealing with the last phrase, he would likely see as better stricken from the Bible. . . . . . . Just my opinion of course.


.

[Revelations won]

Dear Miles,

I enjoyed your response to the JW's.

You probably noticed the they avoided most of the other scriptures attesting to the experience of mankind seeing God. Maybe their JW translation has removed those verses from the Bible???

Also, I think the definition of "vision" may also have some flaws in and of it self. The author or authors of the definition of the word in all likelyhood have had no experience and lack a clear understanding of
other definitions and scope of the word.

Best regards,
RW

[Rose2020]

[Replying to Miles in post #21]

I must agree. I cannot see how this was a vision.
It is safer to just admit it is a mystery, that God had His reasons. But they saw God, are and drank in His presence. It says so.

[JehovahsWitness]

I would like to hear other opinions too.

Be my guest but you're not going to get any other options apart from your usual "the bible is a mystery" (which I suspect will fully satisfy you)...

It is safer to just admit it is a mystery, that God had His reasons. ....

[JehovahsWitness]

IS THE BIBLE A MYSTERY?


No. While it is true God has not provided answers to all our questions as to the details it contains, and true understanding has been revealed to his people gradually and progressively, it is wrong to imply that God has included details that are inaccurate, contradictory and/or confusing.

Anyone that humbly accepts to be taught by his people and approaches the bible free of any bias (save for that which favors God always being right) will be granted the holy spirit necessary to understand scripture. "God/the bible is a mystery" is one of the mechanism by which religious people have been kept in servitude for centuries and the bible promised a time when that particular tool of the elite would no longer keep humbe honest hearted people in darkness.

DANIEL 12: 9-10

Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

RELATED POSTS

Is the bible easy or difficult to understand?
viewtopic.php?p=1049513#p1049513

I want to understand the bible, what must I do?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p940714

Should I need other people to understand the bible?
viewtopic.php?p=1049579#p1049579

Why doesn't God help people understand the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 70#p940370

If the bible is true, why are there so many disagreements as to its meaning?
viewtopic.php?p=1053514#p1053514

Why isn't the bible clearer so that everyone that reads it can come to the same understanding?
viewtopic.php?p=966727#p966727

Why does God not grant understanding to some people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p964402

Is the bible an incomprehensible mess?
viewtopic.php?p=1054980#p1054980

Should the bible make sense?
viewtopic.php?p=1055318#p1055318

Is the bible "a mystery" ?
viewtopic.php?p=1095732#p1095732

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , BIBLE UNDERSTANDING and ... HERMENEUTICS*

* bible interpretation

[Rose2020]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #25]

Thankyou, I shall study those links.
I do agree that discussion with others is very often necessary to understand the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #25]

Thankyou, I shall study those links.
I do agree that discussion with others is very often necessary to understand the Bible.

You're most welcome Rose but you're probably better off re-reading post #2 - v e r y s l o w l y - Don't be scared by my reference to the Hebrew language I always try and break things down as simply as possible. If you are going to read links, read the links in post #2. Post #19 gives a good overview.

Always available for questions,



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Rose2020]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #27]

Ok. I only want to understand. Any help is welcomed but I must come to my own conclusions.

[DB]

[Replying to Miles in post #3]

You have a valid point, but as @jehovahswitness said, it could only plausibly be a vision. i.e. what does God look like, how big are his hands, how big are his feet that held him up on the sapphire surface? What colour is His hair, and how tall would one expect the transcendent Creator of the universe to be? Does He look Semitic, Caucasian, Mongolian, does He have to comb His hair or brush His teeth, ...?

You get the point - one does not see a transcendent, non-circumscribable, immaterial Being who is solely spirit. God allowed them to see a physical representation of Himself, in order to ensure them of His approbation and vigilance upon them. God is omnipresent, neither here or there, but everywhere at once

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #3]

You have a valid point, but as @jehovahswitness said, it could only plausibly be a vision. i.e. what does God look like, how big are his hands, how big are his feet that held him up on the sapphire surface? What colour is His hair, and how tall would one expect the transcendent Creator of the universe to be? Does He look Semitic, Caucasian, Mongolian, does He have to comb His hair or brush His teeth, ...?

If you believe JWs stretch of imagination actually deserves a "but" then I can only wonder what you think a "valid point" is.

.