The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #69]

Yes MissKate13, thanks for the honesty. But Baptists do not all say the same thing about baptism. Southern Baptists do promote full-immersion water baptism "in obedience to the commands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" , I believe is how it goes. We don't actually say "should". We say, true Christians (who have the indwelling) WANT to be baptized and witnessed by the brethren. To us 1 Peter 3 is pretty clear on what the story of Baptism represents. We believe that for one to be baptized they must be of age to understand it.

Good Morning Bob! Thanks for reminding me that not all Baptists believe the same way. Where we differ is when the Holy Spirit indwells us.

That said, Baptists tend to differ on the subject and that is O.K. with us because the water does not save. For instance, I tend to think pouring, sprinkling, dunking, etc. are legalistic and it doesn't matter how wet one gets, as long as the story of the gospel gets told and witnessed by the fellowship of believers, whereas, others say full immersion matters, and there are many that say it is not necessary if you are not converting from Judaism because we are now baptized by the Holy Spirit. They are not as vocal about their belief for fear of being called a Pentecostal (far from it actually). And I personally can agree with them also. Personally, I believe there are many Catholics who I will see in Heaven because they believe the gospel. Just because they believe in legalistic rituals, Purgatory, wafers literally turning into the body of Christ, Priests determining ones salvation, losing salvation, and on and on, ironically does not affect their salvation if they truly believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. My overall point of baptism (and my last post here, just for you) is that haters are going to hate and those who love are of God. My bible is different than yours, Latter Day Saints and JWs. Mine clearly shows God only recognizes those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Rom 8:9. and Romans 8:16 The Spirit HIMSELF (nothing or no one else) bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

I agree with you. Water saves no one. We are saved by Grace through faith. Humbly submitting to the command of Jesus to be baptized shows our faith to Him and others. Baptism is the time God has chosen to forgive us and to give us His indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). The Greek term “baptizo” is defined as immerse. Jesus commanded we be immersed. Who is man that he can change a command given by our Savior? If Jesus said to immerse, then we immerse.

I judge no one’s salvation. God alone sees the heart. I hate no one.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say I use a different Bible than you. There is only ONE Bible. Unfortunately, it’s written in Greek, therefore, we are dependent on English translations. Personally, I use all translations when I study. However, if I want to truly understand, I use a Greek lexicon where I can look up the meanings of Greek words. I use BibleHub.com. It’s a wonderful tool for those of us who are not experts in the Greek language.

I agree with what you wrote about Romans 8:9 and 8:16.

And Ephesians 1:13 and others clearly says we receive the indwelling because of our belief and that its a momentary happening.

No Bob. Ephesians 1:13 does not say we receive the indwelling Spirit the MOMENT we believe. A few English translations do, but the original Greek text does not. If you care about truth, you will research for yourself. The only way you can know is to look at the original Greek language.

I would strongly advise not being on this forum or those like it because it is full of hate and vitriol.

I pray you haven’t put me in the hate category. I don’t make the claim that anyone is going to hell. I’m not sure why you’re telling me all this. I may disagree with your doctrine, but I don’t believe I’ve been hateful or judgemental towards you. I’m sorry if you think I have.

Be blessed,
Kate

[William]

I say all that to show that these differences can not be debated at all because we compare the proverbial apple to an orange. You might as well be arguing with the A.I. on this forum (I think there is more than one, but not sure). I would strongly advise not being on this forum or those like it because it is full of hate and vitriol. There is no point in debating an athiest, or non-trinitarian.

I pray you haven’t put me in the hate category. I don’t make the claim that anyone is going to hell. I’m not sure why you’re telling me all this. I may disagree with your doctrine, but I don’t believe I’ve been hateful or judgemental towards you. I’m sorry if you think I have.

Be blessed,
Kate

I think Bob is saying when it comes to different beliefs among the Christianities (denominations claiming to be Christian) debate is meaningless re "comparing the proverbial apple to an orange" because to do so is like unto "arguing with A.I." and that he thinks there is at least one AI and possibly more and that this forum and that this forum is "full of hate and vitriol" and there is no point in debating with atheists or those Christians who do not believe in the Doctrine of Trinity (presumably those displaying said hate and anger?).

I can see why one might be confused by Bob's rhetoric/statements of opinion. Perhaps the attitude Bob displays with his words, are cultured within his particular denomination, or perhaps they are sourced in the baggage of his former life before becoming a Christian and he has yet to do work on those, because apparently being baptised hasn't removed said former thinking from his mind?

Related to judgmentalism, is the following observation.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to William in post #72]

Thank you for your post, William. I appreciate your view. . I’m hoping Bob addresses my post, but if not, it’s ok.

I have worked very hard to be respectful on forums. It’s one lesson I have learned through participating in various ones. I do not judge people, but I do judge doctrines. That is what christians are to do. Jesus told us to beware of false prophets. That requires us to make judgements on what is being taught.

There is only one truth, and that is God’s. I understand that some passages can be seen differently, but most, especially those concerning salvation, are crystal clear. No matter the topic, every passage concerning it must be considered in totality. We cannot isolate a single verse and build a doctrine from it.

I am about truth, even if It means my thinking is wrong. I’m willing to change my thinking if I am misguided.

Have a blessed evening!

Kate