Atheism tends to confine religion to nothing more than a God to pray to and an afterlife to go to, but I'm curious about the need to wrestle with God. If you dislike the term substitute your own. Wrestling with religion, Wrestling with doubt, etc.
Psalm 22:1 " My God, my God, why have You forsaken me; why so far from helping me, and far from the words of my roaring?" There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God. This can be dismissed to the frustrations of unanswered prayer for sure, but not entirely. How does atheism account for the need to struggle with God? The desire for prayer and an afterlife is obvious enough, but the desire to confront God for the perceived absence of Himself. This is rather curious to me.
The hallmark of Christian poets, theologians, and critical thinkers as well, is not hallelujah, praised be God but rather where is God? Struggling with God in a world where He seems absent is the essence of most religious books, and seems to denote a need to wrestle with God, rather than a peculiar pitfall of spirituality in general.
Apologists seem to enjoy the battle more than defending their faith. If we reduce apologetics to nothing more than religion grappling with modern scrutiny then we have dismissed a vital part of being human. To argue. Apologists seem to get something out of their musings, which is beyond the scope of merely being relevant in modernity. They feel a need.
Question For The Atheist
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Question For The Atheist
Post #1
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #21Thank you for some intelligent input. I was beginning to think I'd just get trolled here. You metaphorically nailed it. The theists are also hesitant to look away from what frightens them. They'll look at Bible contradictions, theological absurdities, etc, the same way you watch the tapeworm videos on youtube. Apologetics has a strange desire to look at the " horrid things...worms in the eye...". Anyways, that is what I'm trying to figure out. I called it wrestling with God, maybe its just wrestling with the fear you mentioned: I think if I don't look it'll definitely get me.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:30 pmAs an atheist I desire it because I want to know if I'm wrong, and I can't imagine a luckier situation than a forum where religious people are allowed to say their peace and will give me all the evidence that they are actually correct, for free, even though I am very very unlikely to buy their product. This is something so good it should not exist in a capitalist world, and I'm very thankful that it does.SacredBishop wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:57 pm I'll put the question a different way. Does apologetics merely reflect religion grappling with itself in the face of 21st century scrutiny? Or does it satisfy a different need altogether? The former is religion trying to remain reasonable in modernity, the latter is something mysterious. By mysterious I mean, something that satisfies a need which is beyond the realm of being relevant. Apologists seem to enjoy the battle more than defending their faith. This is curious.
I will also admit that while I can justify my position on this rationally, it comes from somewhere deep and primal, and me thinking that if I look away from what frightens me, that's when it's going to get me.
It's also why I watch horrid things on YouTube such as parasites and worms in the eye and tapeworms in the brain and cutebras. I think if I don't look, it'll definitely get me.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #22Yes, you did as I have documented. Are you ready yet to support your claim that people have a need to wrestle with God?
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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #23( edited. I made a fool of myself.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #24I'll quote you from post #1 yet again given that you are denying once again making this claim:SacredBishop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:43 amSir, you never bothered to read post # 1, as is evident from all your posts. I never said humanity has a need to wrestle with God.
SacredBishop wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:24 pm There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #25[Replying to Tcg in post #24]
Apologies sir. I was unnecessarily harsh on you. Pardon me. I see the point of confusion. Post 1 mentions " people have a need", and towards the bottom I specify the people as Christian poets, theologians, thinkers, and apologists. I didn't make the opening post as coherent as I presumed I did . Ok, I vehemently disavow that people have a need to wrestle with God. I'm trying to understand apologetics, and assume they have a need for it. As Daniel Dennet said, " theology and apologetics are like stamp collecting. Few people actually do it." I'm trying to understand this stamp collecting. Anyway, I'll edit my rebuke, and clarify that it was I who needed a rebuke. Apologies sir.
Apologies sir. I was unnecessarily harsh on you. Pardon me. I see the point of confusion. Post 1 mentions " people have a need", and towards the bottom I specify the people as Christian poets, theologians, thinkers, and apologists. I didn't make the opening post as coherent as I presumed I did . Ok, I vehemently disavow that people have a need to wrestle with God. I'm trying to understand apologetics, and assume they have a need for it. As Daniel Dennet said, " theology and apologetics are like stamp collecting. Few people actually do it." I'm trying to understand this stamp collecting. Anyway, I'll edit my rebuke, and clarify that it was I who needed a rebuke. Apologies sir.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #26Nope, your claim was that "There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God." Certainly, you remember that claim? This is the third time I've quoted it verbatim.SacredBishop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:56 am [Replying to Tcg in post #24]
Post 1 mentions " people have a need", and towards the bottom I specify the people as Christian poets, theologians, thinkers, and apologists.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #27Yes, I prefaced post 1 with that. It clarifies who the people are farther down though.Tcg wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:14 amNope, your claim was that "There is a curious need people have to wrestle with God." Certainly, you remember that claim? This is the third time I've quoted it verbatim.SacredBishop wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:56 am [Replying to Tcg in post #24]
Post 1 mentions " people have a need", and towards the bottom I specify the people as Christian poets, theologians, thinkers, and apologists.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #28Ah, post 9. I quoted atheist philosopher Daniel Dennet who claims religious people have a need for God. A parasite etc. Is this what your talking about? Because post 1 clearly clarifies who I'm talking about towards the bottom? There's no need to debate people in general or humanity in full. I am talking about apologists, nothing else.
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Re: Question For The Atheist
Post #29What's so odd or curious about the need to make sense of the world? How is this need to "wrestle with God" any different from my need to figure out why a bit of code is working when it looks like it shouldn't? It spits out the correct results, so my job is technically done, and yet I feel the need to keep investigating why an apparent flaw isn't manifesting itself.SacredBishop wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:24 pm The hallmark of Christian poets, theologians, and critical thinkers as well, is not hallelujah, praised be God but rather where is God? Struggling with God in a world where He seems absent is the essence of most religious books, and seems to denote a need to wrestle with God, rather than a peculiar pitfall of spirituality in general.
Apologists seem to get something out of their musings, which is beyond the scope of merely being relevant in modernity. They feel a need.
I think it's perfectly natural for human, particularly the thinkers, to feel a need to figure things out when it doesn't look right at a glance. For those who believe in God, that means wrestling with doubts, something isn't quite right.