Is Jesus mediator only for the “anointed class” of JW’s?

[MissKate13]

If true, then WHO mediates for the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #149]

We are living in the thousand year reign of Christ at this moment. Christ’s true followers have been in His kingdom since He established it on Pentecost AD 33. His true followers are reigning with Him. This is supported by the plain language of Scripture (...)

That is not what the Scriptures teach. Read:

Dan. 7:21 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.
(...) 24 As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. 25 He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely.
27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

In what time are we currently living? In the time in which the brothers of Christ have control of humanity, or in the time in which they are persecuted and humiliated by the political governments that exist in this world?

Dan. 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, 45 just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The Grand God has made known to the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

[Eloi]

(...) It’s in the spiritual realm Christ and His followers reign reign.

That "spiritual realm" of yours means MENTAL DELUSION.

That thought of a current "Christian" reign is nothing more than wishful thinking. As discussed before, that is not what the Bible teaches.

Rev. 12:11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

Before being kings and priests, the true brothers of Christ first have to be transformed into powerful immortal beings, something they obviously cannot have while living in simple imperfect human bodies of flesh and blood.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to Eloi in post #152]

It is a spiritual reign, and I’m sorry you can’t wrap your head around it. You have much in common with the people of Jesus’ day. They wanted a physical, military King, one that would wage war with their Roman oppressors, but that’s not the kind of King Jesus was. Jesus is King over a spiritual kingdom and always will be.

God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (Eph 1) so that we can defeat Satan (Eph 6). We reign over sin and death through the blood of Christ. Sin, death, and condemnation have no power over us. Temptation and trials have no power over us. The love of God has given us the strength we need to overpower everything this world and the god of this world throws at us.

[Eloi]

(...)

Your judgementalism is irrelevant ... It doesn't add anything to the topic.

As you can see in the biblical quotes of past comments, the Bible doesn't support that delusion. PERIOD.

Have a good one.

[MissKate13]

(...)

Your judgementalism is irrelevant ... It doesn't add anything to the topic.

As you can see in the biblical quotes of past comments, the Bible doesn't support that delusion. PERIOD.

Have a good one.

I take that to mean you don’t believe you have the power to defeat Satan and his spiritual forces? I ask because that’s what reigning with Christ entails.

In what ways are we reigning?

*Through righteous lives Romans 5:17 We rule over sin in this world.

*Through righteous judgments I Corinthians 6:2 Christians have the right to tell the world if they are doing something wrong. (transgressing God’s laws) Acts 4:8:20

*When we teach the world about sin and its consequences, we do so through the power of the Spirit. John 16:8

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #143]

The point you, all JW’s and Tam are missing is that the kingdom is here now, and true followers of Christ are ruling with Him.

I am not sure what more I can add to what I said in our previous conversation (our previous discussion did not continue). So I am just going to link to that discussion, and if you feel like continuing it, then we can.

viewtopic.php?p=1101043#p1101043
viewtopic.php?p=1101280#p1101280
viewtopic.php?p=1101556#p1101556


Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you,

The position that the subjects of the Kingdom cannot be Christians prior to their surviving the great Tribulation is untenable and certainly unscriptural.

We have been around this block before ...



Why is it unscriptural to claim all Christians* living in the last days must be anointed?[discusssion with TAM]
viewtopic.php?p=1005160#p1005160

Indeed we have been around this block before. I personally never mind when you post links to our conversations because it saves me the trouble of looking for them. My responses always follow the post in the specific link that you have provided. I am just going to link to a quick summary of my points in that conversation:

viewtopic.php?p=1005334#p1005334

TAM recognises there will be two groups of individuals RULERS and SUBJECTS and that the subjects will live forever on earth. Her point however is that the SUBJECTS are all non-believers allowed to survive the coming destruction of the wicked. However ...

WERE non-believers. They should no longer be able to doubt or deny the existence of Christ or of God, because they will be seeing Christ with their own two eyes. The sheep and the goats (all of whom are alive when Christ returns) BOTH call Christ, "Lord."



Peace again to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eloi in post #149]

We are living in the thousand year reign of Christ at this moment. Christ’s true followers have been in His kingdom since He established it on Pentecost AD 33. His true followers are reigning with Him. This is supported by the plain language of Scripture, which you’ve chosen to ignore.

As long as you continue to ignore the fact that the kingdom is here, you will never understand the truth. Meanwhile you refuse to accept His invitation to enter into His covenant. You reject Him as your mediator. You refuse to obey His gospel and to be born again.

It’s in the spiritual realm Christ and His followers reign reign.
God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (Eph 1) so that we can defeat Satan (Eph 6). We reign over sin and death through the blood of Christ. Sin, death, and condemnation have no power over us. Temptation and trials have no power over us. The love of God has given us the strength we need to overpower everything this world and the god of this world throws at us.

Yes, Jehovah has given us, the true church of Christ, every spiritual blessing there could be. It is indeed a spiritual warfare, and we know we can survive this world with God's Spirit helping us, providing for us, educating us, giving us strength. We have a spiritual paradise, like no other congregation. Jesus has not gathered all of the 144,000; there are still a few thousand on Earth. They will all be gathered and will come with Christ at Armageddon. THEN the Kingdom will be installed for a thousand years. After that, the Kingdom will get rid for all time the evil ones remaining (those that have decided to stand against Jehovah), and, as Daniel has said:

"In the days of those kings [the ones that were harsh toward God's people], shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed....but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." (Daniel 2:44, KJV)

"...Unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder....Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his Kingdom to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD [YHWH] of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6,7, KJV)

We can see that these things haven't happened yet, so the Kingdom hasn't taken over completely. Soon it will be obvious who the true God is and what His purpose for the earth is.

[Eloi]

The expressions "to stand" and "before the throne" do not necessarily mean a physical position. In the Bible these expressions are sometimes associated with the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (it-1 Great Crowd __ https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001762 )

A clear example is the following:

Rev. 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

For this reason, in Rev. 7:9, just a few verses later, the position of favor in which the great crowd is "before God" is contrasted.

This metaphor can be compared to the following words of Jesus:

Luke 21:36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.

A similar use of these expressions can be found in the following Biblical texts:

Psal. 5:5 No arrogant person may stand in your presence. You hate all those who behave wickedly;

Prov. 22:29 Have you seen a man skillful at his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before common men.

Rev. 7:9,15 DO NOT INDICATE that the great crowd is in heaven with Jesus and his anointed brothers, who will be the kings and priests, but that they enjoy God's approval and are allowed to survive the great tribulation because of that favored position. Those who survive the great tribulation that will occur on earth will remain on earth because God approved their salvation. At no time does the Bible say that the great crowd will go to heavens as it is said of the group of "kings and priests" (and that occurs before the Millenium even started) ... neither does the Bible say that non-Christians can survive the judgment that all of humanity will have to face; there is no human salvation without Jesus Christ.

PS: The condition of "standing before the throne of God" that the great crowd is in, is a condition that they have acquired by their constant service SINCE BEFORE the great tribulation began (Matt. 25:34,40) and during it (Matt. 24:13), not just after the great tribulation ended.

[Miles]

[Replying to Eloi in post #149]

We are living in the thousand year reign of Christ at this moment. Christ’s true followers have been in His kingdom since He established it on Pentecost AD 33. His true followers are reigning with Him. This is supported by the plain language of Scripture, which you’ve chosen to ignore.

As long as you continue to ignore the fact that the kingdom is here, you will never understand the truth. Meanwhile you refuse to accept His invitation to enter into His covenant. You reject Him as your mediator. You refuse to obey His gospel and to be born again.

It’s in the spiritual realm Christ and His followers reign reign.
God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (Eph 1) so that we can defeat Satan (Eph 6). We reign over sin and death through the blood of Christ. Sin, death, and condemnation have no power over us. Temptation and trials have no power over us. The love of God has given us the strength we need to overpower everything this world and the god of this world throws at us.

Yes, Jehovah has given us, the true church of Christ, every spiritual blessing there could be.

Who is "us"? And what is your evidence of this gift from god?

We have a spiritual paradise, like no other congregation.

Have you examined the spiritual paradises of all the other congregations? If not, how do you know? If so, please show your work---not that I expect any exists.

Jesus has not gathered all of the 144,000; there are still a few thousand on Earth.

Not according to scripture where it's pointed out that all 144,000 would come from the 12 ancient tribes of the "sons of Israel." And Jesus, not having been born yet, would not have had anything to do with it anyway. Moreover, as history has shown the twelve tribes were eliminated long before Jesus appeared, so god's plan would have already been fulfilled. All the seats have been taken folks. Heck, there isn't even any standing room left.

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Source: Revelation 7:4-8

They will all be gathered and will come with Christ at Armageddon.

But there is no "they" to be gathered. If I'm not mistaken this is just a JW pie-in-the-sky fabrication, and designed to keep the flock in line would be my guess.

THEN the Kingdom will be installed for a thousand years.

But isn't this the Kingdom Jesus said was "just around the corner," yet never did appear?

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:23
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 16:28
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

So, what do you get to do, simply ignore failed Bible pronouncments and make up your own story?

After that, the Kingdom will get rid for all time the evil ones remaining (those that have decided to stand against Jehovah), and, as Daniel has said:

"In the days of those kings [the ones that were harsh toward God's people], shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed....but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." (Daniel 2:44, KJV)

"...Unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder....Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his Kingdom to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD [YHWH] of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:6,7, KJV)

Evidently you do. As I've pointed out elsewhere, Christianity is truly a do-it-yourself religion.

We can see that these things haven't happened yet, so the Kingdom hasn't taken over completely.

Yup. Like it or not your Jesus was wrong. But that's okay, your god made mistakes himself. Mistakes he even acknowledged. Of course no one said God and his Son were perfect, now did they. Oh! they did? Fancy that.

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