Understanding the Christian View of Trans People

[Skeptical]

I've enjoyed many of the X-Men movies and one character who I particularly thought was interesting was Kitty Pryde played by Ellen Page.



However, I was completely surprised when I found out that Ellen transitioned into Elliot Page fairly recently in the year 2020. Also, I recently read an article about his past gender dysphoria.

Thinking back to when he was much younger, prior to coming out as transgender, the 36-year-old actor recalled the discomfort that came with his changing body. “My body started to change and clothes sat on me differently,” Page added. “And all of that just was, really was the beginning of really sort of disconnecting from myself and feeling a degree of discomfort that was very erosive and damaging.”

Elliot Page on How His Acting Career Impacted His Gender Dysphoria

Gender Dysphoria

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of distress or discomfort because of the difference between a person’s gender (assigned at birth) and their gender identity. This applies to both males who are assigned a female gender at birth and females who were assigned the male gender at birth. People with gender dysphoria are normally transgender...

Dysphoria vs. Dysmorphia

Also, I had always wondered about this and wanted to ask Christians and JWs about this topic. Plus, years ago when I Bible studied with JWs and even went to some of their meetings at one of their Kingdom Halls, I remember seeing a man dressed up as a woman in the audience and standing up and signing JW Kingdom songs along with the rest of JWs, but I thought to myself that he or she must really be trying to change coming to the Kingdom Hall dressed like that.

Therefore, I wanted to ask Christians and JWs: Do trans members ever really change and stop being trans? Also, I am aware of the Bible verses that Christians and JWs use to condemn trans people such as Deuteronomy 22:5, 1 Corinthians 11:14–15, and 1 Corinthians 6:9 where Young's Literal Translation renders that verse as:

have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

where the word "effeminate" is translated from the Greek word μαλακοὶ (malakoi), which means, "(a) soft, (b) of persons: soft, delicate, effeminate. Of uncertain affinity; soft." And I guess it's vice versa for masculine women. However, I would like to know other than the Bible saying don't be like this or don't be like that, do Christians or JWs ever wonder about why a person has cross gender identification in the first place? Because it's difficult for me to imagine that a little child who feels this way is being sinister and is trying to sin against God. Because to me, there always seemed to be a lot more to it such as how their brains function. Plus, it seem as if they're being blamed for something that they have no control over:

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

[Skeptical]

DOES MATTHEW 5:28 MEAN HOMOSEXUALS ARE CONDEMNED FOR THEIR DESIRES?

No. Jesus was highlighting that all sin starts with unwholesome desires and inevitably leads to actions if we do not make a constant effort to fight them.

MATTHEW 5 :28

But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart

The verb in the original language was witten in the continuous form, so Jesus does not say that that anyone that looks at a woman (person) but that keeps looking. The point being we may not be able to control our initial reaction but we can avoid harbouring and nurturing wrong desires. (compare verses 29, 30).

But aren't homosexual desires considered unwholesome, period?

[JehovahsWitness]

But aren't homosexual desires considered unwholesome, period?

All sinful desires are unwholesome but if God condemned us for having them nobody would be saved.

PSALMS 103:10

He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor has he repaid us what our errors deserve

As Jesus highlighted Christians are expected to make a continuous effort to control our thoughts and desire. No human has the right to judge a person for what goes on in their heart and God is kind and compassionate and sees a persons sincere efforts to struggle against impure desires regardless of their sexual orientation.

Within the context of this discussion, it is a person's actions that can bar them from being accepted as a baptised member of the Christian community. Granted as Jesus indicated all actions begin with a desire, but if sexual immorality were inevitable there would have been little point for the counsel (compare Matthew 5:29-30)




JW


Does the bible condemn men for merely having what might be considered "effeminate " traits?
viewtopic.php?p=1124098#p1124098

Are homosexuals condemned for their sexual orientation ? [Mat 5:28]
viewtopic.php?p=1124139#p1124139

[Skeptical]

DOES MATTHEW 5:28 MEAN HOMOSEXUALS ARE CONDEMNED FOR THEIR DESIRES?

No. Jesus was highlighting that all sin starts with unwholesome desires and inevitably leads to actions if we do not make a constant effort to fight them.

MATTHEW 5 :28

But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart

The verb in the original language was witten in the continuous form, so Jesus does not say that that anyone that looks at a woman (person) would be condemned but rather that anyone that keeps looking. The point being we may not be able to control our initial reaction but we can avoid harbouring and nurturing wrong desires. (compare verses 29, 30). Whether homosexual or heterosexual, a Christian must struggle against lecherous thoughts but they are not condemned unless they give up that fight.

Unlike Jesus' words above, the context of Paul's words were not about the origins of sin but rather what measures Christians were authorised to take vi-a-vis each other. The subject is introduced in the context of lawsuits against fellow Christians. One does not go to court because of someone's feelings about us but because of their actions.

Also, aren't you moving the goal post a little bit here? Because you had said:

So scripture does not condemn men for their sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex or merely for having what is generally considered more "effeminate" mannerisms or qualities but for voluntarily engaging in sexual activities with members of the same biological sex.

However, this what I understand to be true:

Libido naturally varies significantly from person to person. Your sex drive can also change throughout your life. There’s no right or wrong level of libido. Some people have sex or feel like having sex every day, while others may feel like having sex a few times a year or not at all. The “right” or “normal” libido for you depends on your preferences and life circumstances.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/d ... umstances.

Plus, even scripture indicates this: 1 Corinthians 7:9

Therefore, I would think that for some people who have stronger libidos and who have "sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex," they would kind of be up the creek without a paddle. Therefore, what do you think?

[Skeptical]

But aren't homosexual desires considered unwholesome, period?

All sinful desires are unwholesome but if God condemned us for having them nobody would be saved.

PSALMS 103:10

He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor has he repaid us what our errors deserve

As Jesus highlighted Christians are expected to make a continuous effort to control our thoughts and desire. No human has the right to judge a person for what goes on in their heart and God is kind and compassionate and sees a persons sincere efforts to struggle against impure desires regardless of their sexual orientation.

Within the context of this discussion, it is a person's actions that can bar them from being accepted as a baptised member of the Christian community. Granted as Jesus indicated all actions begin with a desire, but if sexual immorality were inevitable there would have been little point for the counsel (compare Matthew 5:29-30)




JW


Does the bible condemn men for merely having what might be considered "effeminate " traits?
viewtopic.php?p=1124098#p1124098

Are homosexuals condemned for their sexual orientation ? [Mat 5:28]
viewtopic.php?p=1124139#p1124139

See my post #13.

[JehovahsWitness]

1 Corinthians 7:9

... [people] who have "sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex," they would kind of be up the creek without a paddle.

It's true that same sex attraction can find no release in biblical marriage which is were a Christian must decide if they wish to obey God's commands and avoid sexual immorality at all cost or not. As has been said, successfully battling such desires must be possible if not what would be the point of Jesus counsel?



JW

[Skeptical]

1 Corinthians 7:9

... [people] who have "sexual attraction to members of the same biological sex," they would kind of be up the creek without a paddle.

It's true that same sex attraction can find no release in biblical marriage which is were a Christian must decide if they wish to obey God's commands and avoid sexual immorality at all cost or not. As has been said, successfully battling such desires must be possible if not what would be the point of Jesus counsel?



JW

So, what exactly do you mean by "at all cost"? Also, as far as "successfully battling such desires must be possible if not what would be the point of Jesus counsel"... then that goes right back to 1 Corinthians 7:9. And it basically goes back around in circles because Jesus' counsel contradicts 1 Corinthians 7:9.

[JehovahsWitness]

... what exactly do you mean by "at all cost"?

To stay faithful to bible principles no matter how difficult or what sacrifices and hardships that entails.

MATTHEW 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me.

HEBREWS 3:14

For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we hold firmly down to the end the confidence we had at the beginning

1 Corinthians 7 :9 is not an option for same sex attracted persons, so their only biblical option is to continue their struggle to be faithful until the end of this world system or the end of their lives, knowing that God will reward their sincere efforts to please him.

... Jesus' counsel contradicts 1 Corinthians 7:9.

No it does not.

[Wootah]

It's a super complicated topic.

Christians are being transformed to be like Christ. So Christians are trans. God knows who we are, sinners, and loves us anyway and does not want to leave us in our natural state. Christianity is also a materialist religion. We will live one day on a new earth, in physically incorruptible bodies and as such whilst I don't know how that will look exactly but presume I won't look aged and deformed by wear and tear.

So

On a superficial practical level, I don't think we should be normalising harming our bodies and we should be normalising accepting who we are. But I acknowledge that we need exercise for our bodies and minds and leaving them in their natural state is not best for them.

In general teaching people to look a specific way to please others is wrong.

Of course, evolution demands so much from us to be more than we are that the path to trans is inevitable for some. In our highly feminised society, many men feel the pressure of taking the feminine path for the perceived benefits. Or in general, we all feel pressure to fit in and transform in some way.

I worry that we have allowed too many mentally ill people into positions of power as doctors and psychologists and they may be getting a perverse joy from the mutilation of others.

I think we are made a certain way and have resented that from the beginning and want to make ourselves in our own image. Deeply spiritual really.

--

I think that a trans person should be allowed to sue their surgeons or the people that advised them if they later regret it. Statue of limitation being their reproduction life so let's say 20 years or once they hit 36. That sounds reasonable?

[Skeptical]

... what exactly do you mean by "at all cost"?

To stay faithful to bible principles no matter how difficult or what sacrifices and hardships that entails.

But then, that throws 1 Corinthians 7 :9 right out the window for people who have homosexual desires. Therefore, how can part of God's word trump another part of God's word?

MATTHEW 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me.

With the exception of extremely horny heterosexual people who can take advantage of Paul's (or God's?) "out" that he provided them, while at the same time, neglecting to provide an out for everyone.

HEBREWS 3:14

For we actually become partakers of the Christ only if we hold firmly down to the end the confidence we had at the beginning

Well, not to go off topic, but isn't becoming a partaker of the Christ pertaining only to the anointed and not to all JWs? But getting back on topic, shouldn't Hebrews 3:14 have a footnote that says something like: 'But concerning Christians who have homosexual desires, them having it a bit more difficult than the average Christian.'

1 Corinthians 7 :9 is not an option for same sex attracted persons, so their only biblical option is to continue their struggle to be faithful until the end of this world system or the end of their lives, knowing that God will reward their sincere efforts to please him.

And how exactly is that fair or right? Plus, I know that you never opposed what I'm about to say next, but from what I heard, there are a lot of Christians with homosexual desires that God doesn't cure.

... Jesus' counsel contradicts 1 Corinthians 7:9.

No it does not.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to elaborate a bit more on that rather than just saying, "No it does not."

[JehovahsWitness]

... what exactly do you mean by "at all cost"?

To stay faithful to bible principles no matter how difficult or what sacrifices and hardships that entails.

But then, that throws 1 Corinthians 7 :9 right out the window for people who have homosexual desires.

What do you mean by "throws ... out the window"? If you mean the solution the scripture proposes does not apply to homosexuals, I have already said that is correct.

....Christians who have homosexual desires, them [have] it a bit more difficult than the average Christian....

Possibly thats true but thats life; there is little point comparing ourselves with others although someone with gender dysphoria might hesistate explaining to a Christian paralysed from the neck down that their desire to wear a dress is so much harder than being fed through a straw every day.... Even if that were the case (mental and emotional pain can indeed be harder than physical pain) but the bottom line is still, each Christian must run their course and it is not a competition whose life is harder.

Some struggle with mental or physical andicap, others with crushing poverty or grief. Not all single Chrsitians can find a suitable partner and all Christian adults have a to keep impure thoughts at bay regardless of their orientation. Each one must "carry his own load" and its not a competition whose is heavier.

For the dedicated Christian, giving up is not an option !


JW



What does serving God no matter what the cost mean?
viewtopic.php?p=1124313#p1124313