Christians, I Have a Question

[POI]

Did Jesus think he was going to come back before all his direct followers died (yes or no)? I'm not speaking about his resurrection tour. I'm referring to the claimed 'second coming' of Christ.

I would imagine any Christian, who bothers to answer, will say (no). However, is there a case to be made, that Jesus thought he would come back during any of the direct follower's lifetime(s)?

[POI]

QUESTION: WHICH generation was Jesus refering to when he said "this generation" will not pass away"?

The word "this" is an inficative pronoun, we use it to identify someone or something without using a proper noun (name). The context indicates if what is being referef to is near or far. Lets take an example:

The men and women that fought the first world war were very brave. This generation saved the free world.

Which generation is the "this" pointing to in the example above? Our present generation living in the 21st century or those living 100 years ago?

Lets take an example looking into the future.

One day people will live on Mars , time travel by means of an Apple device will be possible and everyone will drive invisibl flying cars. "This generation" will not have to work and will be still be alive when America is given back to Britain as an overseas colony.

If I made the above predictions in the 2020's does the "this generation" necessarily refer to the people alive in the 2020s? What if I was more specific

In 3023 people will live on Mars , time travel by means of an Apple device will be possible and everyone will drive invisibl flying cars. "This generation" will not have to work and will be still be alive when America is given back to Britain as an overseas colony.

Which generation does the "this" refer to? Evidently the 2020s generation will be long dead before the "this generation" of my example will be born to witness the predicted return of America to Britain as an overseas colony.




It is premature to conclude Jesus reference to "this generation " was to the generation to whom he was speaking in the first century. A contextual analysis of the events ( "the things" ) he (Jesus) spoke about in Mat 24:3-33 indicate he was speaking of a generation of believers that would be alive thousands of years into the future of the 1st century.

To expand upon the OP, there exists an argument that Jesus is just another failed apocalyptic preacher. Is this position simply intellectual suicide?

Of course, you are going to disagree about him being a failed apocalyptic preacher, because you are a Christian. However, when reading the Bible, about the 'end times', seems they believed it was coming soon. And 'soon' probably does not mean millennia later, or longer.

- When Jesus was preaching, he may have believed he would re-return soon.
- When all the Bible writers wrote their portions, they also believed Jesus would re-return soon, (after re-translating what Jesus said).
- Now we have failed apocalyptic predictions galore.

Below is a 17-minute video to demonstrate a specific position. Is this position valid?

[POI]

HAS JESUS RETURNED YET?

MATTHEW 24:34 ESV

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only

Looking around, I don't see any evidence whatsoever, nor have I heard of any such evidence that suggests "that" day ever occurred. Have you?

No. There can be no evidence something has occurred when it has not yet occurred. Like most Christians I believe the return if Christ yet a FUTURE event.

But "in the future" means (very soon). (i.e.) Paul likely thought it was going to happen in his lifetime, but he was wrong:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

And then "Mark" re-translates it for his generation. And so on, and so forth through Revelation....

[POI]

Did Jesus think he was going to come back before all his direct followers died (yes or no)? I'm not speaking about his resurrection tour. I'm referring to the claimed 'second coming' of Christ.

I would imagine any Christian, who bothers to answer, will say (no). However, is there a case to be made, that Jesus thought he would come back during any of the direct follower's lifetime(s)?

If we speak about the "judgment day", Jesus said:

But as to that day and that hour, no one knows, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only.
Matt. 24:36

Because of that, it seems Jesus didn't know the time of "the coming of the Son of man".

I can also not know when the 'Jack in the box" is going to spring. But if I keep winding it, I know it's going to happen soon

[Miles]

HAS JESUS RETURNED YET?

MATTHEW 24:34 ESV

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only

Looking around, I don't see any evidence whatsoever, nor have I heard of any such evidence that suggests "that" day ever occurred. Have you?

No. There can be no evidence something has occurred when it has not yet occurred. Like most Christians I believe the return if Christ yet a FUTURE event.

I know, but how do you do this in the face of Matthew 24:34-35 where it commonly says:


34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


When "this" is defined as

pronoun ˈt͟həs
plural these

a) the person, thing, or idea that is present or near in place, time, or thought or that has just been mentioned
b) constituting the immediately following part of the present discourse
c) constituting the immediate past or future
source:Merriam-Webster (my emphases)

And when a "generation" is defined as

noun gen·​er·​a·​tion ˌje-nə-ˈrā-shən

a) a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor
b) a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously
c) a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status
d) a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type
source:Merriam-Webster

.

[JehovahsWitness]

... how do you do this in the face of Matthew 24:34-35 where it commonly says ...This generation

MY REDPONSE:

QUESTION: WHICH generation was Jesus refering to when he said "this generation" will not pass away"?

The word "this" is an indicative pronoun, we use it to identify someone or something without using a proper noun (name). The context indicates if what is being referef to is near or far. Lets take an example:

The men and women that fought the first world war were very brave. This generation saved the free world.

Which generation is the "this" is pointing to in the example above? Our present generation living in the 21st century or those living 100 years ago?

Lets take an example looking into the future.

One day people will live on Mars , time travel by means of an Apple device will be possible and everyone will drive invisible flying cars. "This generation" will not have to work and will be still be alive when America is given back to Britain as an overseas colony.

If I made the above predictions in the 2020's does the "this generation" necessarily refer to the people alive in the 2020s? What if I was more specific

In 3023 people will live on Mars , time travel by means of an Apple device will be possible and everyone will drive invisible flying cars. "This generation" will not have to work and will be still be alive when America is given back to Britain as an overseas colony.

Which generation does the "this" refer to? Evidently the 2020s generation will be long dead before the "this generation" of my example will be born to witness the predicted return of America to Britain as an overseas colony. So as we can see, the two words "this generation" can refer to a generation far into the future if the one alive at the time of speaking.

It is premature to conclude Jesus reference to "this generation " was to the generation to whom he was speaking in the first century. A contextual analysis of the events ( "the things" ) he (Jesus) spoke about in Mat 24:3-33 indicate he was speaking of a generation of believers that would be alive thousands of years into the future of the 1st century.



JEHOVAH’S WITNESS



RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus teach his return would be within the lifetime of his first disciples?
viewtopic.php?p=1125464#p1125464

Which is the GENERATION Jesus claimed would not pass away before his return? [Mat 24:34]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 19#p752219

What are "THESE THINGS" that Jesus said the "last" generation would witness? [Mat 24:34]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p775061

[TRANSPONDER]

We are all well aware that, to the Believer, if a prediction is said that some of those listening to a prophet hear that some standing there would not 'taste death' before the prediction comes true, (whether in 30 or 2030) we would expect it to happen before they were all gone, and it's 2000 years later and we are still waiting, the words must have meant something else. Just as if it seems Joseph lives simultaneously in Judea and in Galilee in two stories, that Mary meets the risen Jesus running from the tomb and tells the disciples the body is gone and she has no idea what, or that John says Thomas was absent Sunday evening and Luke says all 11 was there..it must mean something else (1).

We don't buy it and the more excuses and insistence that we aren't reading it right are made to wave away all these problems, the less we are going to buy it. The passage is clear enough, and Paul, as said above, shows he thought that all this was going to happen soon. And like excusing slavery as some kind of retirement plan, the lack of a spear thrust in the synoptics or a penitent thief in anyone by Luke and no transfiguration in John, we can hardly be blamed if your apologetics do not wash whiter.

We have to ask why Jesus would say things that seemed to say something as plain as day - like 'whatever you ask in faith...' has to be explained when it doesn't appear to pan out as really meaning something else.

(1) it does mean something else, just as 'King of the Jews' means something else to Matthew or Herod would have investigated his family and nobles for a royal pretender, not rushed straightaway to Scripture. It means something else to a Christian and the person who wrote Matthew was a Christian.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

It is premature to conclude Jesus reference to "this generation " was to the generation to whom he was speaking in the first century. A contextual analysis of the events ( "the things" ) he (Jesus) spoke about in Mat 24:3-33 indicate he was speaking of a generation of believers that would be alive thousands of years into the future of the 1st century.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

The problem here is that you have Jesus uttering a tautology, a statement of the obvious:

"The generation which sees all these things happen will not pass away until all these things have happened".

Therefore, the conclusion that he was referring to some future generation makes no sense.

[POI]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

You have skipped right over posts 11 and 12. Please response to them or I will just claim another victory. People thought he was coming very soon. Meaning, in their lifetimes.

[1213]

And what I find interesting is that just two verse before, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34-35
34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.

Looking around, I don't see any evidence whatsoever, nor have I heard of any such evidence that suggests "that" day ever occurred. Have you? Whaaa hoppend 1213? Is this one of those cherries that goes unpicked?

.

I think it is possible that "people of this time" means the people "see all these things", not necessary the people at that time. However, of the things Jesus listed, what could not have already happened?

[TRANSPONDER]

And what I find interesting is that just two verse before, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34-35
34 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 35 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.

Looking around, I don't see any evidence whatsoever, nor have I heard of any such evidence that suggests "that" day ever occurred. Have you? Whaaa hoppend 1213? Is this one of those cherries that goes unpicked?

.

I think it is possible that "people of this time" means the people "see all these things", not necessary the people at that time. However, of the things Jesus listed, what could not have already happened?

Mark 13. 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The time has long gone, and it has not happened. This was a false prophecy. I know it has to be "Interpreted" so everything means something else.