Help with Hell

[Margrove]

Hello.

Not sure this is the right forum.

Hell in the Old Testament was the Hebrew Gê-hinnōm or Sheʾōl. The first place actually exists and is a desolate valley close to Jerusalem where nothing grows. Here there is a connection with fire, because seems like the place was used to incinerate children to Moloch. The second Hebrew denomination (Sheol) simply means pit, grave. To me both convey the meaning of desolation, abandonment, nothingness, void, and the punishment for the malignant souls derives from that "void".

Also, a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.

Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

In the New Testament, we see very few mentions to the "fire of Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 18:9; James 3:6. In the Revelation, if I am not mistaken, it mentions that the Antichrist will be thrown in the hell of fire and perish.

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

[JehovahsWitness]

What makes you think that this "Christian Church" even existed?

Furthermore, as you point out, it caved into Roman pressure and didn't "stick to what Jesus taught" because it was aware that if it didn't, then it would not survive the Roman onslaught.

JWism only came into the picture way later on in the game and was birthed out of The Roman Church and carries with it the book the Roman Church decreed was the truth about Jesus and YHVH and called the movement "Christianity".

If it hadn't of happened that way, no one would be aware some guy called "Jesus" even had existed. Likewise, JWism would not exist. Rome made the story famous, and probably even invented most of the famous story and certainly invented Christianity.

Quite a string of unsubstantiated claims...





RELATED POSTS

Did the Catholic Church compile the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p838566

To read more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS

Nor did I claim that Roman Catholicism was the source of Christianity. ...

Did I claim you did?

[Eloi]

...
Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

Since the Bible teaches that the thoughts of the dead cease to exist at the moment of death (Ps. 146:4), it is impossible for there to be places where the dead continue to experience sensations that only the living can experience.

Ecl. 9:4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for already the true God has found pleasure in your works. 8 May your clothing always be white, and do not fail to put oil on your head. 9 Enjoy life with your beloved wife all the days of your futile life, which He has given you under the sun, all the days of your futility, for that is your lot in life and in your hard work at which you toil under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

[William]

[Replying to Eloi in post #28]

Has anyone ever told you that the Bible teaches anything about any purgatory?

Even if it did or didn't, the Bible is part of the overall process of creating religion - and fundamentally so, as without it, there is no "word" given which directs the minds of humans through human belief systems.

Purgatory is symbolic of temporal states - where temporary measures occur and are favored re the idea of both Justice and Fairness.

If the Bible makes no implications re such states, then I would question why the Bible has these ideas omitted, as they link directly with the moral-based ideas of Justice and Fairness.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #28]

Has anyone ever told you that the Bible teaches anything about any purgatory?

Even if it did or didn't, the Bible is part of the overall process of creating religion - and fundamentally so, as without it, there is no "word" given which directs the minds of humans through human belief systems.

Purgatory is symbolic of temporal states - where temporary measures occur and are favored re the idea of both Justice and Fairness.

If the Bible makes no implications re such states, then I would question why the Bible has these ideas omitted, as they link directly with the moral-based ideas of Justice and Fairness.

Off topic.

[William]

[Replying to Eloi in post #28]

Has anyone ever told you that the Bible teaches anything about any purgatory?

Even if it did or didn't, the Bible is part of the overall process of creating religion - and fundamentally so, as without it, there is no "word" given which directs the minds of humans through human belief systems.

Purgatory is symbolic of temporal states - where temporary measures occur and are favored re the idea of both Justice and Fairness.

If the Bible makes no implications re such states, then I would question why the Bible has these ideas omitted, as they link directly with the moral-based ideas of Justice and Fairness.

Off topic.

Not at all. But you are free not to answer the observations I make, if you are unable or unwilling to do so.

It appears that some Christians don't like the idea of a personality having to endure a hellish experience as it makes God look bad, so they follow such philosophies which propose a stateless dead non-existence - not at all unlike the philosophy of Materialism - as a means of not having to engage with that contrary concept.

However, clearly Biblical Jesus believed there was more for the individual personality to experience after their life of being human ended - even if such states also included the personality enduring misery.

I am suggesting the contrary - that such does not make a God look bad, because there is justice and fairness involved as well.
Perhaps that is why some Biblical authors lean to the belief that once dead always dead (unless one is chosen by the God to be rebooted) as a means of avoiding having to think it through in terms of morality. They just assume that a God would not allow that without the God being immoral.

Such assumption appears silly, since clearly, God allows for humans to suffer in their current forms and no one but materialists are questioning the morality of that.

[myth-one.com]

Perhaps that is why some Biblical authors lean to the belief that once dead always dead (unless one is chosen by the God to be rebooted) as a means of avoiding having to think it through in terms of morality.

Once dead always dead is exactly what is written in the scriptures.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Believers will have everlasting life, while nonbelievers will perish.

And those that perish know nothing about anything ever again:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Eloi]

... clearly, God allows for humans to suffer in their current forms and no one but materialists are questioning the morality of that.

Since you don't believe God exists, to be honest to yourself, you should start questioning human behaviour instead
... and the real need for a God to offer hope in the midst of this hopeless context of humans without God.

Psal. 37:10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

Rev. 11:16 And the 24 elders who were seated before God on their thrones fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

[kjw47]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #36]


The bible promises a resurrection( Rev 20:13) after Armageddon and the wicked are removed. All who have died stay dead until the resurrection. Only the little flock will join Jesus in heaven prior to the resurrection event. Blind guides tell all they go to heaven at death.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #36]
The bible promises a resurrection( Rev 20:13) after Armageddon and the wicked are removed. All who have died stay dead until the resurrection. Only the little flock will join Jesus in heaven prior to the resurrection event. Blind guides tell all they go to heaven at death.

Every human who ever died will be resurrected. Deceased believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.

The "wicked" are not being resurrected to be "removed." They will be given the opportunity to become believers and enter the everlasting Kingdom of God after being resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming.

Jesus is returning to rule the earth for ever and ever with those who believe in Him.

[boatsnguitars]

Hello.

Not sure this is the right forum.

Hell in the Old Testament was the Hebrew Gê-hinnōm or Sheʾōl. The first place actually exists and is a desolate valley close to Jerusalem where nothing grows. Here there is a connection with fire, because seems like the place was used to incinerate children to Moloch. The second Hebrew denomination (Sheol) simply means pit, grave. To me both convey the meaning of desolation, abandonment, nothingness, void, and the punishment for the malignant souls derives from that "void".

Also, a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.

Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

In the New Testament, we see very few mentions to the "fire of Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 18:9; James 3:6. In the Revelation, if I am not mistaken, it mentions that the Antichrist will be thrown in the hell of fire and perish.

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

Depends on which denomination you ask. Christians don't have a single understanding of their text.