Help with Hell

[Margrove]

Hello.

Not sure this is the right forum.

Hell in the Old Testament was the Hebrew Gê-hinnōm or Sheʾōl. The first place actually exists and is a desolate valley close to Jerusalem where nothing grows. Here there is a connection with fire, because seems like the place was used to incinerate children to Moloch. The second Hebrew denomination (Sheol) simply means pit, grave. To me both convey the meaning of desolation, abandonment, nothingness, void, and the punishment for the malignant souls derives from that "void".

Also, a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.

Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

In the New Testament, we see very few mentions to the "fire of Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 18:9; James 3:6. In the Revelation, if I am not mistaken, it mentions that the Antichrist will be thrown in the hell of fire and perish.

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

[Margrove]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #11]

thank you for adding Tartarus to the list. It is an abyss, no fire (even if symbolic) in it. Tartarus seems to be ancient, does it precedes Hades or they appeared at the same time in Greek mythology?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #2]

"Some say it was because Christians were being burned for their faith in that time and the teaching came as a way to show that those doing such things will themselves be on fire forever."

This came from some historian's synopsis on the origin of hell I read years ago.

"It seems the teaching came with a bundle of other foreign teachings that were not taught in the 1st century."

Most noted is the teaching of the trinity was also accepted around the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
https://www.worldhistory.org/Trinity/

There are others but that would be a huge post. However, I'd recommend doing some reading on the 2nd and 3rd century Christian church. Look into the Roman influence on it. It was a CRAZY time in history. The Christian Church basically was just trying to not get snuffed out and rather than sticking to what Jesus taught, it started making compromises in what it taught. As it started gaining traction and then started gaining power in state affairs. All of which wasn't part of the 1st century Christian congregation teaching.

[Margrove]

The trinity concept, the interdiction for women to be priests and bishops and probably the novena https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novena. You are right about how the Christian Church compromised many tenets in order to expand and keep itself afloat. I recommend https://www.amazon.com/Early-Christians ... 0874865964 as a good compilation of early Christian information in their own words. Thank you for your insights and comments!

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #22]

There are others but that would be a huge post. However, I'd recommend doing some reading on the 2nd and 3rd century Christian church. Look into the Roman influence on it. It was a CRAZY time in history. The Christian Church basically was just trying to not get snuffed out and rather than sticking to what Jesus taught, it started making compromises in what it taught. As it started gaining traction and then started gaining power in state affairs. All of which wasn't part of the 1st century Christian congregation teaching.

If this had never occurred, no form of Christianity would have survived and JWOrg would not exist.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #22]

There are others but that would be a huge post. However, I'd recommend doing some reading on the 2nd and 3rd century Christian church. Look into the Roman influence on it. It was a CRAZY time in history. The Christian Church basically was just trying to not get snuffed out and rather than sticking to what Jesus taught, it started making compromises in what it taught. As it started gaining traction and then started gaining power in state affairs. All of which wasn't part of the 1st century Christian congregation teaching.

If this had never occurred, no form of Christianity would have survived and JWOrg would not exist.

Ridiculous. The true Christian congregation would have been unhindered and the world would be basking in the truth. As it happened, the false church has been like weeds (tares) that almost choked the true church out. (Matt.13:37-39)

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #25]

Ridiculous.

Opinion noted. Lets us examine the idea to see if it is the case it is simply something deserving or inviting derision or mockery; something absurd..

The true Christian congregation would have been unhindered and the world would be basking in the truth. As it happened, the false church has been like weeds (tares) that almost choked the true church out. (Matt.13:37-39)

This appears to contradict your former statement:

It was a CRAZY time in history. The Christian Church basically was just trying to not get snuffed out and rather than sticking to what Jesus taught, it started making compromises in what it taught.

What makes you think that this "Christian Church" even existed?

Furthermore, as you point out, it caved into Roman pressure and didn't "stick to what Jesus taught" because it was aware that if it didn't, then it would not survive the Roman onslaught.

JWism only came into the picture way later on in the game and was birthed out of The Roman Church and carries with it the book the Roman Church decreed was the truth about Jesus and YHVH and called the movement "Christianity".

If it hadn't of happened that way, no one would be aware some guy called "Jesus" even had existed. Likewise, JWism would not exist. Rome made the story famous, and probably even invented most of the famous story and certainly invented Christianity.

[JehovahsWitness]

What makes you think that this "Christian Church" even existed?

Furthermore, as you point out, it caved into Roman pressure and didn't "stick to what Jesus taught" because it was aware that if it didn't, then it would not survive the Roman onslaught.

JWism only came into the picture way later on in the game and was birthed out of The Roman Church and carries with it the book the Roman Church decreed was the truth about Jesus and YHVH and called the movement "Christianity".

If it hadn't of happened that way, no one would be aware some guy called "Jesus" even had existed. Likewise, JWism would not exist. Rome made the story famous, and probably even invented most of the famous story and certainly invented Christianity.

Quite a string of unsubstantiated claims...





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[Eloi]

... a rabi mentioned during an interview that the stay of the malignant soul at the Hebrew Hell can last up to one year only. This limited time stay seems to be like the concept of Purgatory in the Christian faith, where the souls stay for a limited time until they repent or not and are shuttled either to Heaven or Hell according to each case.
...

Anything a rabbi tells you can be refuted, denied, and contradicted by some other rabbi. How would you know what official Judaism teaches on any Biblical subject?
Besides, are you sure that what a modern Jew tells you will agree with the biblical teaching that comes from God?

All of this applies equally to any member of the larger "Christendom", which is a conglomeration of religions and groups, and even independent individuals who go by the name "Christians"... Has anyone ever told you that the Bible teaches anything about any purgatory?

[William]

What makes you think that this "Christian Church" even existed?

Furthermore, as you point out, it caved into Roman pressure and didn't "stick to what Jesus taught" because it was aware that if it didn't, then it would not survive the Roman onslaught.

JWism only came into the picture way later on in the game and was birthed out of The Roman Church and carries with it the book the Roman Church decreed was the truth about Jesus and YHVH and called the movement "Christianity".

If it hadn't of happened that way, no one would be aware some guy called "Jesus" even had existed. Likewise, JWism would not exist. Rome made the story famous, and probably even invented most of the famous story and certainly invented Christianity.

Quite a string of unsubstantiated claims...





RELATED POSTS

Did the Catholic Church compile the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p838566

To read more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS

Posting an opinion and a meme isn't the same as supporting evidence that I am simply stringing claims together which are unsubstantiated.
The history certainly isn't hidden, even that some Christians might prefer to see things that way.

Nor did I claim that Roman Catholicism was the source of Christianity. Catholicism too, came much later, although earlier than JWism.

My point stands. Without Rome's interference, all forms of Christianity would not exist, and the world would no nothing about the Jesus story.
There was no "one church or "true Christianity" struggling to survive under the penalties inflicted by Roman Rule which then - in order to survive - caved into Roman Rule "rather than sticking to what Jesus taught" which is the claim I am critiquing, that being:

"The Christian Church basically was just trying to not get snuffed out and rather than sticking to what Jesus taught, it started making compromises in what it taught."

The compromise was obviously necessary in order for this so-called "Christian Church" to survive, but clearly since there is no record of Jesus ever calling his followers "Christians" no such church existed, which called itself "Christian" until after the alleged compromise occurred.

Prior to that, there were cults/sects which were attempting to inject their particular versions of truth into mainstream society and were not altogether popular due largely to their crazy ideas which were not altogether even in agreement with one another, but were causing enough grief for Rome to regard as a threat against its own agenda.

Point being, Roman agenda won out, and Christianity was created as a means of subjugating the threat and Both Catholics and JWs and all Christian-based organizations in between those two, are the result of that.

[Eloi]

...
Other sources say that the Christian Hell was adpoted from the Greek tradition. However, the Roman Hell (Hades) is a cold, dark labyrinth guarded by Cerberus. The Roman Hell is not fiery, but cold. Celtic Hell is usually at the bottom of water bodies as it could be the case at La Thène where archaeologists interpret the offerings found at the bottom of the Neuchâtel lake as offerings to the spirits that live in the otherworld. Therefore, the fire from Hell did not came from Hebrew, Roman, Greek or Celtic tradition.

...

Form where it came the fiery Hell mentioned in the Bible? Is it native to the Christian religion or is it imported from another religion?

Not all Christians believe in a hell of fire where souls or spirits are tortured ... A non-JWs institution, for example, Seventh Day Adventists.

Calling the doctrine of hell a Christian belief/teaching is inaccurate.