Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

[TRANSPONDER]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

That's an interesting take. I suppose it depends on the reason for the prayer.I imagine praying for anwers,benefits or relif andf not getting answers would make one feel 'Not better'but why do it?

Others (at least from what they claim in debates) feel saved, fulfilled and happy after praying. Maybe they are the ones doing it Right. Or as expected by the religion.

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

Regardless of the experience, you have to still prove that you are not merely speaking to yourself alone. I say it's your conscious and nothing more. In such cases, your conscious steers you in the perceived 'right' direction. But you have to prove this direction comes from anything other than the self.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

Regardless of the experience, you have to still prove that you are not merely speaking to yourself alone. I say it's your conscious and nothing more. In such cases, your conscious steers you in the perceived 'right' direction. But you have to prove this direction comes from anything other than the self.

Your point is correct. I appreciate you accepting my point that feeling better is not the reason we pray. At least you didn’t deny me my point.

The problem in proving to you that God is there and answers prayer cannot be established in words alone and words are all we have here. I cannot prove to you in words that I have a husband and he loves me. In both cases all my evidence, although rock solid for me because I live(d) it, is anecdotal for you. How shall we solve this? You’d have to believe my accounts and that’s a tall ask since acknowledging this point being true leads to bigger challenges for you.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

That's an interesting take. I suppose it depends on the reason for the prayer.I imagine praying for anwers,benefits or relif andf not getting answers would make one feel 'Not better'but why do it?

Easy answer…we are commanded to do so.

Others (at least from what they claim in debates) feel saved, fulfilled and happy after praying.

I’ve never heard that and scripture describes prayer, real prayer, as wrestling. Jesus agonized in prayer and those closest to God feel great sorrow or in Jesus’ case, agony.

But I can see that those you describe are likely self-delusional. Or if one is talking about one’s troubles, it feels as good as telling a friend your troubles. That feels good too. Sounds like an exercise in self-soothing….God being there or not totally unnecessary. I can see now why the question came up. I find prayer to be work. But I get prayers answered, too many to count. When I’ve asked God to heal me so the pain stops, I only felt better when the pain stopped, not when the prayer stopped.

Maybe they are the ones doing it Right. Or as expected by the religion.

Their description doesn’t match scripture so it’s more like catharsis.

[1213]

So, you just talked to yourself and expected something?

All prayer is speaking to oneself.

If it is pointed to oneself. If it is not pointed to oneself, it is not speaking to oneself, even if there is no one listening. For example often I get the feeling here that no one listens. It doesn't mean that I am just talking to myself.

[TRANSPONDER]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

**********************************

People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

Actually, you don’t feel better after praying so the whole opening assumption is wrong. Prayer is often difficult and unpleasant and rarely does one KNOW the answer is now coming. You also have to face problems you’d prefer to ignore. No, it doesn’t make you feel better as a rule.

That's an interesting take. I suppose it depends on the reason for the prayer.I imagine praying for anwers,benefits or relif andf not getting answers would make one feel 'Not better'but why do it?

Easy answer…we are commanded to do so.

Others (at least from what they claim in debates) feel saved, fulfilled and happy after praying.

I’ve never heard that and scripture describes prayer, real prayer, as wrestling. Jesus agonized in prayer and those closest to God feel great sorrow or in Jesus’ case, agony.

But I can see that those you describe are likely self-delusional. Or if one is talking about one’s troubles, it feels as good as telling a friend your troubles. That feels good too. Sounds like an exercise in self-soothing….God being there or not totally unnecessary. I can see now why the question came up. I find prayer to be work. But I get prayers answered, too many to count. When I’ve asked God to heal me so the pain stops, I only felt better when the pain stopped, not when the prayer stopped.

Maybe they are the ones doing it Right. Or as expected by the religion.

Their description doesn’t match scripture so it’s more like catharsis.

Are we commanded? As I recall it is more like an option. If you want something, pray for it. And wrestling?I only recall the claim of Jesus having an agony in the garden, and that was only because he really didn't want to be crucified but knew he had to be.

It is in no way compared to the normal "Lord, gimme a million dollars" or "Lord, confirm thou my biases" or "Lord, give me the right answers so I may confound my online enemies".

I agree that prayer doesn't match scripture, particularly it doesn't produce the unfailing granting of wishes, as guaranteed in the synoptics 1) so of course the Benefit has to be down to something else that Can be obtained; the warm fuzzies of self justification through praying to one's own mind, elevated to cosmic level.

I doubt that an unpleasant ordeal of prayer would commend itself to the worshipper. Give 'em the warm fuzzies, you keep nassty chips.

(1) Mark 11.22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

[POI]

So, you just talked to yourself and expected something?

All prayer is speaking to oneself.

If it is pointed to oneself. If it is not pointed to oneself, it is not speaking to oneself, even if there is no one listening. For example often I get the feeling here that no one listens. It doesn't mean that I am just talking to myself.

Your response makes no sense. We both know there exists people here who read the responses. Whether they decide to respond or not, is another matter. However, when you are praying, regardless of your intent, you are only talking to yourself alone. Meaning, there is no one on the other end listening, because they do not exist.

[POI]

Your point is correct. I appreciate you accepting my point that feeling better is not the reason we pray. At least you didn’t deny me my point.

In the OP, I stated "Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other.". Which means, people pray for all sorts of reasons and also receive all sorts of emotions. But in the end, they all believe there exists someone listening, when they are instead just talking to themselves.

The problem in proving to you that God is there and answers prayer cannot be established in words alone and words are all we have here. I cannot prove to you in words that I have a husband and he loves me.

We are already off to a bad start. We can prove humans exist. We can prove husbands exist. We know the emotion of love exists. It is then not unreasonable to surmise you are married and have a husband. It is also not unreasonable to surmise your husband loves you. This is already leaps and bounds ahead of the claim you are praying to a 'God'. Do we know your God exists? How might we prove this?

In both cases all my evidence, although rock solid for me because I live(d) it, is anecdotal for you. How shall we solve this? You’d have to believe my accounts and that’s a tall ask since acknowledging this point being true leads to bigger challenges for you.

If you believe God answers prayer, please have him tell you what my middle name is, and then tell me. This would be unexplainable. And maybe lead me to believe you are not merely talking to yourself.

[Mae von H]

We are already off to a bad start. We can prove humans exist. We can prove husbands exist. We know the emotion of love exists.

That’s not what I said. I said I can’t prove to you MY HUSBAND exists. And can you prove to me here that love exists. You only have words.

It is then not unreasonable to surmise you are married and have a husband. It is also not unreasonable to surmise your husband loves you. This is already leaps and bounds ahead of the claim you are praying to a 'God'. Do we know your God exists? How might we prove this?

When I tell you that God has moved matters and changed them according to my prayer request, then it’s not unreasonable to surmise He exists. What’s the difference?

In both cases all my evidence, although rock solid for me because I live(d) it, is anecdotal for you. How shall we solve this? You’d have to believe my accounts and that’s a tall ask since acknowledging this point being true leads to bigger challenges for you.

If you believe God answers prayer, please have him tell you what my middle name is, and then tell me. This would be unexplainable. And maybe lead me to believe you are not merely talking to yourself.

You aren’t testing me. You’re testing Him. I have to ask if He’s willing. We have a relationship whereby I am the servant. He’s not my servant doing my bidding.