For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).
**********************************
People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.
Prayer
Moderator: Moderators
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3667
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1646 times
- Been thanked: 1103 times
- Masterblaster
- Sage
- Posts: 554
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:44 pm
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 40 times
Re: Prayer
Post #131Hello
In a Universe with2+ Trillion Galaxies...
how hard is it to accept..
1. There are alien life forms out there
2. We are in the bottom 50% of life form development and capability.
3. We are the only living life forms in the Universe.
4. Christian Doctrine is true.
My guess
1. YES
2. YES
3. NO
4. NO
Do I believe in Aliens?
If I had a use for them, I probably would.
The existence of God and the theism concept is plausible and extremely useful and relevant, and free. Alternatively stand with a placard stating that there is no God , for what reason, I do not know.
Thanks
In a Universe with2+ Trillion Galaxies...
how hard is it to accept..
1. There are alien life forms out there
2. We are in the bottom 50% of life form development and capability.
3. We are the only living life forms in the Universe.
4. Christian Doctrine is true.
My guess
1. YES
2. YES
3. NO
4. NO
Do I believe in Aliens?
If I had a use for them, I probably would.
The existence of God and the theism concept is plausible and extremely useful and relevant, and free. Alternatively stand with a placard stating that there is no God , for what reason, I do not know.
Thanks
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3667
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1646 times
- Been thanked: 1103 times
Re: Prayer
Post #132I already have. Jesus wants a relationship with all his created humans. For some reason, he skips some, even when they repeatedly ask, or ask others in petitionary/intercessory prayer for him to contact the uncontacted. Something logically has to give. A) He does not adhere to his word, or, B) he is not really there. He is either dishonest, or, not there in the first place. I really see no third option.Masterblaster wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:07 pm If you disagree with the philosophy of Jesus then argue against it on that basis, but ,please do not dismiss it because it hasn't worked for you.
How do you know you are not talking to yourself in prayer? If I thought he was really listening and/or talking to me, I would tell you how I know.
Thanks
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Sage
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:31 am
- Has thanked: 50 times
- Been thanked: 38 times
Re: Prayer
Post #133What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.POI wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 12:03 pmMae von H wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 5:22 am [Replying to POI in post #115]
POI, if you still want God to make Himself such that are aware of Him, you are going to have to:
1. Stop insulting Him. Drop the insulting signature and stop complaining He doesn’t do your bidding as you require. This discipline to your pleasure you must insist from yourself.
2. Surrender all expectations as to how He will choose to respond. He will not be used to please human desire for pleasurable experiences.
3. Set no deadline or else. No proud threats.
4. You must ask His forgiveness for your proud demanding ways that He perform and your maligning His character to others. You’ve joined his enemies. You must leave that team forthwith.
Praying will not suffice.
1 & 3. It's impossible to insult a claimed deity that is not really there. I gave up well over half my life asking for him to reach me directly, and he ignored me. He's likely not really there at all. But, just in case, I have now resorted to asking others, who claim to speak to him, to be the God-proxy, and to ask him to contact me. The ball is in your/his court now. I won't hold my breath but will await much more Christian apologetics to come.
You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.
2. I've already stated that I do not know exactly what it would take to be convinced, but God would. He has perpetually chosen to skip me. Hence, I guess he does not want me to know. Further, if he "will not be used to please human desire for pleasurable experiences", then it does not matter whether or not I ask him to contact me
I know Him better than you do and it’s not even difficult. You only need to surrender your attacking and insulting Him for start. Take down your signature that is misrepresenting Him. He gives bicycles and no forgiveness is grants thieves who don’t return the goods. How hard would that be to remove?
The doubting isn’t the problem. I told you the problem. You continually accuse Him of wrong. In the above you accuse Him of (arbitrarily) “deciding” not to “convince” you according to how you DEMAND He needs to do so. You put yourself in the place of the ring master and he’s to be the performing lion. If He doesn’t do as you demand, he gets the whip of your words. This isn’t humble.
4. Doubting that he exists, because he has decided not to convince me, makes me an enemy? He could change that immediately, if he wanted to.
But it’s not He who is feeling the pain, you are. You can insist “the ball is in his court” thinking you are ruling Him through blackmail. (Either He performs or you’ll refuse to believe as though you’re granting Him a favor.) But He will not perform according to your demands. Two cannot walk together unless there is enough like mindedness.
From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.
- Masterblaster
- Sage
- Posts: 554
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:44 pm
- Has thanked: 70 times
- Been thanked: 40 times
Re: Prayer
Post #134Hello
The personal declaration of belief or disbelief in God is irrelevant ,imho. How you proceed from your declaration , will also be objectively irrelevant.
I believe in God is the same as I do not believe in God. (Deism).You leave a town and go to a town by the same road. How is it not so?
You have little capacity to make objective decisions.
Leave that to God, imho
Just sort yourself out as best you can. Take advice from whatever source you feel most comfortable with. Challenge your decisions, constantly as POI is doing. Every rebel reaches their resting spot in the end
Thanks
The personal declaration of belief or disbelief in God is irrelevant ,imho. How you proceed from your declaration , will also be objectively irrelevant.
I believe in God is the same as I do not believe in God. (Deism).You leave a town and go to a town by the same road. How is it not so?
You have little capacity to make objective decisions.
Leave that to God, imho
Just sort yourself out as best you can. Take advice from whatever source you feel most comfortable with. Challenge your decisions, constantly as POI is doing. Every rebel reaches their resting spot in the end
Thanks
'Love God with all you have and love others in the same way.'
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3667
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1646 times
- Been thanked: 1103 times
Re: Prayer
Post #136Are you sure you are not merely accepting the hits, and ignoring the misses? Or, as I asked prior, throwing a dart at the wall, and after the dart hits, you draw a bull's-eye around the dart?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
- POI
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3667
- Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
- Has thanked: 1646 times
- Been thanked: 1103 times
Re: Prayer
Post #137Mae What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.
POI The first 3 (plus) decades of it. I was a devout believer and prayed daily. I also regularly attended church and listened with full attention and with full willingness to learn.
Mae You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.
POI I did the opposite for 3 decades. That did not work either. (Hypothetical) - If you tried to seek out your biological mother for 3 decades, you knew she existed, and you also knew she was aware, and she never responded, when would YOU finally stop?
Mae I know Him better than you do
POI As Masterblaster has indicated, people who say this are full of beans.
Mae The doubting isn’t the problem.
POI Yes, it is, according to Mark 16:16. But, as required, one must spin some of the Bible, or ignore some of it, or both.
Mae From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.
POI How did he try, when he ignored me for 3 decades?
POI The first 3 (plus) decades of it. I was a devout believer and prayed daily. I also regularly attended church and listened with full attention and with full willingness to learn.
Mae You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.
POI I did the opposite for 3 decades. That did not work either. (Hypothetical) - If you tried to seek out your biological mother for 3 decades, you knew she existed, and you also knew she was aware, and she never responded, when would YOU finally stop?
Mae I know Him better than you do
POI As Masterblaster has indicated, people who say this are full of beans.
Mae The doubting isn’t the problem.
POI Yes, it is, according to Mark 16:16. But, as required, one must spin some of the Bible, or ignore some of it, or both.
Mae From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.
POI How did he try, when he ignored me for 3 decades?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
-
- Sage
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:31 am
- Has thanked: 50 times
- Been thanked: 38 times
Re: Prayer
Post #138How is that giving up your life? Catholic, I assume.POI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:03 pm Mae What part of your life did you give up? How did you do this? There is some doubt about this claim.
POI The first 3 (plus) decades of it. I was a devout believer and prayed daily. I also regularly attended church and listened with full attention and with full willingness to learn.
So far all you did was attend church and pray. You otherwise paid attention. That is not seeking. But in any case, it obvious what you expected is not what happened. Surely you agree on that.Mae You are taking the controlling upper position. He’s supposed to seek you. He won’t. He said you need to humbly seek Him. This you refuse to do. And I am fairly confident what I’ve given you to do is what He requires. So you do know what to do. You refuse to do it and claim ignorance.
POI I did the opposite for 3 decades. That did not work either. (Hypothetical) - If you tried to seek out your biological mother for 3 decades, you knew she existed, and you also knew she was aware, and she never responded, when would YOU finally stop?
How would he know? Does he think that Jesus’ words are full of beans?Mae I know Him better than you do
POI As Masterblaster has indicated, people who say this are full of beans.
Did you solve your own query? You expect believing is spinning or ignoring.Mae The doubting isn’t the problem.
POI Yes, it is, according to Mark 16:16. But, as required, one must spin some of the Bible, or ignore some of it, or both.
This I wouldn’t know. I wasn’t there. But surely your categorizing faith as “ignoring” or “spinning” precludes Him getting through.Mae From observation, I think you will not find the satisfaction you seek. “You accuse Him to justify yourself.” He’s tried to help you but you refuse.
POI How did he try, when he ignored me for 3 decades?
Any success He would have had with you would have been lost since you decided what form His communication needs to take. Knowing your style, it’s likely God was restricted to a) b) c) or d) choices. God answered me because I gave Him all the freedom and time and manner He chose. There were no restrictions or expectations on my part.
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11571
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 336 times
- Been thanked: 378 times
Re: Prayer
Post #139As I said, I believe, I can't prove. I understand that one could say it was just a coincidence. I don't believe in coincidences.
-
- Sage
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:31 am
- Has thanked: 50 times
- Been thanked: 38 times
Re: Prayer
Post #140When one has experienced so many prayers answered as asked, it no longer can honestly chalked up to coincidence. The evidence becomes overwhelming. There is more, of course, but these answers increases one’s faith as well as understanding. Unbelievers cannot accept this so don’t expect anything but jeering.1213 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:31 amAs I said, I believe, I can't prove. I understand that one could say it was just a coincidence. I don't believe in coincidences.