The Mental Health of Jesus

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Miles
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The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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This was brought to mind when I looked into the various pronouncements by Jesus that he was god. See HERE and HERE

Then I came across the following remarks about his mental health in the Wikipedia entry: "Mental health of Jesus"

"The question of whether the historical Jesus was in good mental health has been explored by multiple psychologists, philosophers, historians, and writers.
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Opinions challenging the sanity of Jesus
The assessment of the sanity of Jesus first occurs in the gospels. The Gospel of Mark [Mark 3:21 (KJV)] reports the opinion of members of his family who believe that Jesus "is beside himself." [or "is out of his mind"-(NKJV)] Some psychiatrists, religious scholars and writers explain that Jesus' family, followers (John 7:20),] and contemporaries seriously regarded him as delusional, possessed by demons, or insane

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself". And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons".
— Mark 3:21–22, Revised Standard Version

The accusation contained in the Gospel of John is more literal:

There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?"
— John 10:19–20, Revised Standard Version

Binet-Sanglé diagnosed Jesus as suffering from religious paranoia:

In short, the nature of the hallucinations of Jesus, as they are described in the orthodox Gospels, permits us to conclude that the founder of Christian religion was afflicted with religious paranoia.

His view was shared by the New York psychiatrist William Hirsch, who in 1912 published his study, Religion and Civilization: The Conclusions of a Psychiatrist, which enumerated a number of Jesus' mentally-aberrant behaviours. Hirsch agreed with Binet-Sanglé in that Jesus had been afflicted with hallucinations and pointed to his "megalomania, which mounted ceaselessly and immeasurably". Hirsch concluded that Jesus was just a "paranoid":
— (vol. 2, p. 393)

But Christ offers in every respect an absolutely typical picture of a wellknown mental disease. All that we know of him corresponds so exactly to the clinical aspect of paranoia, that it is hardly conceivable how anybody at all acquainted with mental disorders, can entertain the slightest doubt as to the correctness of the diagnosis.
— (p. 103)

New Testament scholar Andrew Jacob Mattill Jr. [Wikidata] in his article in The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (1993), he draws attention to the ever-increasing megalomania of "John's Jesus" (described in the Gospel of John 6:29, 35, 38, 40, 47-58; 7:38; 8:12; 11:25-26; 14:6, 13-14) and concludes:

The more trust one puts in the Fourth Gospel's portrait of Jesus the more difficult it is to defend the sanity of Jesus.

In 2012, a team of psychiatrists, behavioral psychologists, neurologists and neuropsychiatrists from the Harvard Medical School published a research that suggested the development of a new diagnostic category of psychiatric disorders related to religious delusion and hyperreligiosity. They compared the thoughts and behaviors of the most important figures in the Bible (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Paul) with patients affected by mental disorders related to the psychotic spectrum using different clusters of disorders and diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR), and concluded that these Biblical figures "may have had psychotic symptoms that contributed inspiration for their revelations", such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, delusional disorder, delusions of grandeur, auditory-visual hallucinations, paranoia, Geschwind syndrome (especially Paul) and abnormal experiences associated with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). According to the authors, in the case of Jesus, it could have been: paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. They hypothesized that Jesus may have sought death through "suicide-by-proxy" (indirect suicide)

Question: Could it be that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? So much so that he was religiously delusional? After all, several of the Bible verses mentioned above suggest this might be the case. That he "is mad." "He has a demon." "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul," and that "he "is out of his mind."
I realize that it's highly unlikely that anyone here is in any position to challenge the remarks of any of the professional people mentioned above, but as a lay person what would be your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy?


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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #11

Post by Miles »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 10:05 am
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pmOne what over what other?
One explanation over the other. I said there were at least two reasons why someone might claim a person is mentally unhealthy: (1) they actually are and (2) they disagree with that person’s actions/teachings to the degree that it sounds crazy to them. That the claim of insanity is there doesn’t support one over the other.
You said no such thing. You compared a claim of a person's poor mental health to "true comments" about that person’s mental health, AND TO "a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions."

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pmAlthough citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable* source to note that something was radically amiss with the guy.
No, the Biblical passages note that some people thought something was amiss with the guy, which can be explained by the (1) and (2) I mentioned above. Having the claims of something being amiss alone doesn’t rationally support (1) over (2). Why do you think it does? I know you are claiming it does, but why?
Unfortunately, only 1 of the 21 verses I quoted use the word "thought" to describe the way some approached Jesus's mental condition, which is Mark 3:21 in the Contemporary English Version Bible. All the other quotes I presented said the people:

"answered"
"said"
"replied"
"saying"

In fact, of the 122 verses I checked from 61 different Bibles for Mark 3:21 and 22, the word "thought" was only used 4 times

And surely you haven’t forgotten that you brought up authors thinking Jesus to be quite insane as support that he is.
No I haven't, which is why I said " Although citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable.

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pm* First of all, all scripture is from god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Secondly, everything he said was true.

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "
How is this contradicted if the above (2) is the case? It would be true that people claimed Jesus was crazy and that these are useful examples for teaching us.
Sorry, but because you're messing around with your (1) and (2) far too much to make sense of them, I'm ignoring both.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #12

Post by The Tanager »

Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:14 pm
One explanation over the other. I said there were at least two reasons why someone might claim a person is mentally unhealthy: (1) they actually are and (2) they disagree with that person’s actions/teachings to the degree that it sounds crazy to them. That the claim of insanity is there doesn’t support one over the other.
You said no such thing. You compared a claim of a person's poor mental health to "true comments" about that person’s mental health, AND TO "a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions."
You don’t think “true comments (concerning someone being mentally unhealthy)” is identical to saying “they actually are [referring to them being mentally unhealthy]”? What does it mean for a comment that Jesus is mentally unhealthy to be true, then?

And you don’t think “A way to speak of one’s disagreements with that person’s alternative teachings and actions” is identical to saying “they disagree with that person’s actions/teachings…”? What does each of these mean to you then?
Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:14 pmUnfortunately, only 1 of the 21 verses I quoted use the word "thought" to describe the way some approached Jesus's mental condition,
Why must the word “thought” be used? These are accounts of what people said. When people talk, they share their thoughts, very often without using the word “thought”.
Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:14 pm
And surely you haven’t forgotten that you brought up authors thinking Jesus to be quite insane as support that he is.
No I haven't, which is why I said " Although citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable.
Okay, so if I said the ontological argument was a good argument for God’s existence (I don’t think it is, by the way, but that’s not the point) and you defeated that reasoning. You would think it perfectly rational for me to say “Although defeating the ontological argument may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that theism is true, one has to remember the cosmological, teleological, moral, applicability of mathematics, etc.” You would (I hope) rightly say something like “but that wasn’t the point of evidence you offered that I am responding to.” What I should do is admit that my first support has been defeated and then offer other arguments in support of my claim.
Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:14 pmSorry, but because you're messing around with your (1) and (2) far too much to make sense of them, I'm ignoring both.
Do they still not make sense to you? If so, help me see why. People that claim someone is crazy can (1) be correct about that or (2) be using that language to speak to their disagreements with that person, while their opponent is not actually crazy. Help me see what is confusing about that to you.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:36 pm
This was brought to mind when I looked into the various pronouncements by Jesus that he was god. See HERE and HERE

The premise of your question is faulty since Jesus never said he was God See HERE and HERE

He did however claim to be "God's son" which since many claim (even today) that we are all ..."God's children" is not enough to establish any mental disfunction. Ad hominem apart, the gospel accounts hold no indication Jesus was mentally unstable. As I posted in an earlier on this same topic:

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:03 am... Was Jesus mad?

None of us where present to assess his mental state, what we can do here is look at what we have and try to assess what statements imply. His rhetoric was reasonable and logical, his behaviour balanced, he took care of himself physically, repecting his body's need to rest and sleep. He displayed empathy and compassion, respected the social norms of his day and is not recorded as suffering from paranoia or hallucinations.

Image
Unless we are going to label all religious and spiritual people pathelogical, the biblical depiction of a peaceful Preacher from Nazareth cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered one of a man that was mentaly "unhealthy".





JW



RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus commit suicide by proxy?
viewtopic.php?p=1126070#p1126070

Was the Apostle Paul bi-polar?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 285#965285

To learn more please go to other posts related to

"BAD JESUS" , "FARICATED JESUS" and ... JESUS OF NAZARETH
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #14

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:55 pm Only if their words carry the certitude of god as in the Bible, where it says:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture [which includes John 10:20] is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word [which includes all those making up John 10:20] of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

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If Bible tells what some people said, it does not mean that what they said is necessary from God. But, even if every word in the Bible is not from God, it can still be useful and there is a purpose why it is there.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #15

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 5:22 am
Miles wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:55 pm Only if their words carry the certitude of god as in the Bible, where it says:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture [which includes John 10:20] is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word [which includes all those making up John 10:20] of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

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If Bible tells what some people said, it does not mean that what they said is necessary from God.
Then what do you think "All Scripture is given by God" means?

scripture
noun
scrip·​ture ˈskrip(t)-shər

a(1)capitalized : the books of the Bible—>often used in plural
a(2)often capitalized : a passage from the Bible

b: a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative
source: MERRIAM-WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY

'

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:53 pm ...
Then what do you think "All Scripture is given by God" means?
...
That the texts that are in the Bible, are given by God. But, the scriptures are also a history book, they tell what happened. They tell also about bad things and things that many people have said. It does not mean that God is the one who says all the things that are said in the Bible.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #17

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:59 am
Miles wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:53 pm ...
Then what do you think "All Scripture is given by God" means?
...
That the texts that are in the Bible, are given by God. But, the scriptures are also a history book, they tell what happened. They tell also about bad things and things that many people have said. It does not mean that God is the one who says all the things that are said in the Bible.
How do you know god didn't put these words in their mouths? You don't. So in as much as the Bible says "all Scripture is given by God" it remains a true that by whatever means the words appeared in the Bible, no matter where they sprung from, they are exactly the thoughts, ideas, concepts, convictions, and thinking god wanted to convey.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #18

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:23 pm How do you know god didn't put these words in their mouths?
Bible tells when the words are God's words and when they are human's words.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #19

Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:22 am
Miles wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:23 pm How do you know god didn't put these words in their mouths?
Bible tells when the words are God's words and when they are human's words.
Nice, I guess, but as I said:

In as much as the Bible says "all Scripture is given by God" it remains true that by whatever means the words appeared in the Bible, no matter where they sprung from, they are exactly the thoughts, ideas, concepts, convictions, and thinking god wanted to convey


all
adjective
: the whole amount, quantity,
: every

:source: Merriam-Webster

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

and

Proverbs 30:5-6

"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "


Have a nice day


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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

Post #20

Post by bjs1 »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

The guy claimed to be God. Capital "G" creator-of-the-Universe, Greatest-Conceivable-Being God in the flesh. If that claim was false then I consider insanity to be the next most likely explanation.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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