The Value of Faith?

[boatsnguitars]

Reference:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Yet, "Hope is not a strategy."

Theists love to use the "no atheist in foxholes" examples as a way to show that when the chips are down, and people panic, they seek out any straw to grasp, even ridiculous concepts like gods to save them - as if it makes their belief in God more reasonable.

However, I'll give a better example:

When the military is preparing for a battle that will either result in victory or death, they don't use hope as a strategy. It would be absurd to think that hope is something useful, faith even less so as it is the reliance on hope. Faith is subservient to hope. That is, one can hope to win the Lottery and we'd all think that's a nice dream, but if someone said "I have Faith I'll win the Lottery" we'd laugh hysterically. That's because the person isn't just hoping, but placing their trust and reliance on hope to win.

Truly, there is no real value in Faith. Hope, yes, Faith, no.

We all know that people can tread water longer is they have hope they will be saved soon. But let's look at the options:

1. Don't hope to be saved, drown
2. Don't hope to be saved, get saved
3. Don't hope to be saved, save yourself (maybe swim until you find an island)
4. Hope to be saved, drown
5. Hope to be saved, get saved
6. Hope to be saved, save yourself
7. Have Faith you will be saved, drown
8. Have Faith you will be saved, get saved
9. Have Faith you will be saved, save yourself

In each example, the outcome is the same. You either drown, get saved, or save yourself.

Faith has no role in increasing the odds of getting saved, other than the Hope one might have to tread water a little longer - but that is relying on the Hope, not the Faith.

It gets worse, though, because here we are talking about a general Faith. When we talk about Faith in God, it's so much worse:

1. Don't hope to be saved, drown (God let you drown)
2. Don't hope to be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
3. Don't hope to be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)
4. Hope to be saved, drown (God let you drown)
5. Hope to be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
6. Hope to be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)
7. Have Faith you will be saved, drown (God let you drown)
8. Have Faith you will be saved, get saved (God may or may not have saved you)
9. Have Faith you will be saved, save yourself (God didn't help)

Only in 1/3rd of the example, does God - maybe - help.

Now, consider this is what people use to believe in the origin of the Universe, Speciation, belief in dying and rising saviors, belief in an afterlife, etc.

Religion teaches that one must have Faith in their respective God, or else (in many cases) suffer for eternity. So, it's not as if one can waver in Faith. You MUST have Faith, or else get denied.

In fact, if a person drowns (or something bad happens), Religionists will often say, "You didn't have enough Faith."
So it's not enough that Faith is functionally useless, but it's required.

Think about how abjectly cruel that is! "You must have Faith to have a chance of getting in God's good graces but God is under no obligation to affirm your Faith."

With this fear of God's rejection, Religionists than use their choice of God's to dictate what they believe about the world, and many try to force their chosen beliefs on others.

Question:
Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

[JehovahsWitness]

Question:
Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

To answer the question : No, I do not agree that faith useless, cruel or worse.





JEHOVAHS WITNESS




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[boatsnguitars]

To answer the question : No, I do not agree that faith useless, cruel or worse.

I disagree. Would you care to tell us how Faith is valuable?

[JehovahsWitness]

To answer the question : No, I do not agree that faith useless, cruel or worse.

I disagree. Would you care to tell us how Faith is valuable?

It's valuable to those that need a relationship with God to be happy.


JW

[Data]

Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

Yes, if it's misapplied or misunderstood. You were right in using a general as well as a religious application. Faith isn't a strategy or a reward system. Faith, specifically in God, is trust in what he says, in his promises. If there were no reward would faith remain? Yes, otherwise what you really have is faith in yourself. Salvation from God is an undeserved kindness. in contending with God he may preserve us but we have to die, physically and metaphorically. Material benefits resulting from our faith in God in a world of sin is limited by our sinfulness, imperfection, incompletion. and to some extent more dependent upon faith in ourselves. God's promise is true though our hearts are wicked. Thus the cruelty.

[boatsnguitars]

Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

Yes, if it's misapplied or misunderstood. You were right in using a general as well as a religious application. Faith isn't a strategy or a reward system. Faith, specifically in God, is trust in what he says, in his promises. If there were no reward would faith remain? Yes, otherwise what you really have is faith in yourself. Salvation from God is an undeserved kindness. in contending with God he may preserve us but we have to die, physically and metaphorically. Material benefits resulting from our faith in God in a world of sin is limited by our sinfulness, imperfection, incompletion. and to some extent more dependent upon faith in ourselves. God's promise is true though our hearts are wicked. Thus the cruelty.

So, Faith in Allah provides all this?

[Data]

Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

Yes, if it's misapplied or misunderstood. You were right in using a general as well as a religious application. Faith isn't a strategy or a reward system. Faith, specifically in God, is trust in what he says, in his promises. If there were no reward would faith remain? Yes, otherwise what you really have is faith in yourself. Salvation from God is an undeserved kindness. in contending with God he may preserve us but we have to die, physically and metaphorically. Material benefits resulting from our faith in God in a world of sin is limited by our sinfulness, imperfection, incompletion. and to some extent more dependent upon faith in ourselves. God's promise is true though our hearts are wicked. Thus the cruelty.

So, Faith in Allah provides all this?

Faith doesn't provide anything. It is, by definition, complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

[boatsnguitars]

Is Faith useless, cruel or worse?

Yes, if it's misapplied or misunderstood. You were right in using a general as well as a religious application. Faith isn't a strategy or a reward system. Faith, specifically in God, is trust in what he says, in his promises. If there were no reward would faith remain? Yes, otherwise what you really have is faith in yourself. Salvation from God is an undeserved kindness. in contending with God he may preserve us but we have to die, physically and metaphorically. Material benefits resulting from our faith in God in a world of sin is limited by our sinfulness, imperfection, incompletion. and to some extent more dependent upon faith in ourselves. God's promise is true though our hearts are wicked. Thus the cruelty.

So, Faith in Allah provides all this?

Faith doesn't provide anything. It is, by definition, complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Then it sounds like it's worse than trust, since I can trust but verify. It appears Faith is trust but not verify.

[Data]

Then it sounds like it's worse than trust, since I can trust but verify. It appears Faith is trust but not verify.

If you could verify you wouldn't need faith, but that isn't to say that faith negates verification. One can't immediately verify something they specifically put faith in. I have faith the sun will come out tomorrow but I can't verify it until tomorrow. Once verified faith is no longer needed in that specific instance.

[1213]

...
Truly, there is no real value in Faith. Hope, yes, Faith, no.
...

In Bible there is a nice example of faith in the story of Noah. Noah was faithful=loyal to God, it meant he believed what God had told and was loyal to God and built the ark. That kind of faithfulness is what is expected from people. And it has value, because when people are loyal to God, they live by His word and do good things.