JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:06 am
CLAIM : If all things have been created through Jesus then Jesus cannot have been created.
FALSE: That would depend on if the word "all" is being used in the ABSOLUTE (all that exists) or in the
RELATIVE (all that exists with certain exception(s)).
HOW DO WE KNOW PAUL WAS USING THE WORLD "ALL" IN THE RELATIVE SENSE
NOT THE ABSOLUTE?
Because taking the "all" in the absolute would contradict scripture. Since the Father (YHWH ) exists , to say that absolutely all that exists was created through Jesus would mean Jesus was used to create the Father himself. This is of course nonsense sjnce God is uncreated. So any understanding of Colossian's "all" MUST take it to mean "all" with at least one exception. If "all" has an exception it is by definition RELATIVE.
So having established that Paul's "all" carries an implicite exception we can ask if Jesus himself can also be an exception and if so why
WHY WOULD JESUS NOT BE INCLUDED IN THE "ALL"?
Thinking trinitarians are forced admit that the "all things" of Colossians is RELATIVE and does not include absolutely all that EXISTS, but will claim that the only catagory of exceptions would be uncreated beings. But this is not a given. Once we have opened the door to any exception (by regognising that the "all things" is relative) , scripture (not church theology or human thinking) establishes what the EXCEPTIONS include.
WHY IS JESUS AN EXCEPTION ?
Since Jesus is refered to as being a created being, then Jesus must have been excetional for
a different reason to that of YWHH (Jehovah). The bible describes Jesus as the "only begotten son" this means Jesus as THE WORD was an absolutely unique son out of all God's sons (God's angelic spirit intelligent children) Why was Jesus unique? because he is the first, most preminent creation and
the only thing YHWH created alone, without collaboration.
CONCLUSION Colossians does not establish Jesus is an un created being but rather that he is the one through whom "
collaborative" creation came into existence.
FURTHER READING
For a much more detailled analysis please see the following links:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.fr/ ... l-115.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200312032221 ... otokos.htm
COLOSSIANS
This is eisegesis.
You are basically saying since my beliefs say Jesus cannot be God then the words cannot mean Jesus is God.
The words however say Jesus is God.
Now pause. Count to 10. Say to yourself I am going to read the next bit of text as if it was the first time I have ever read it.
16 For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created,
things visible and invisible,
whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers.
All things have been created through him and for him.
17 He himself existed before anything else did,
and he holds all things together.
Without knowing anything else you would say oh that is about God.
So if you did imagine in isolation just the quoted text 16 and 17 who would you guess it was about?
Or to put it another way if I went up to a child and said
'Who created the heavens?
'Who created the earth?
'Who created all the people and angels?'
'Who exists before anything else exists?'
What would they say?
."
