Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by Data »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:36 pm No Science does debunk the Bible.
For the purpose of this debate science is defined as the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained; a branch of knowledge; a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind. Debunk is defined as to expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief) as well as to reduce the inflated reputation of (someone), especially by ridicule.

Question for debate: Is this true? Does science debunk the Bible and if so, how?
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:12 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:36 pm No Science does debunk the Bible.
For the purpose of this debate science is defined 1as the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained; 2a branch of knowledge; a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind. Debunk is defined as to expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief) as well as to reduce the inflated reputation of (someone), especially by ridicule.

Question for debate: Is this true? Does science debunk the Bible and if so, how?
You seem to me to have two different concepts of 'science' within the definitions you gave. With 1, I think it would be logically impossible for science to debunk the Bible by its very definition. It could debunk certain interpretations of certain Biblical passages, where one thinks the Bible is making a scientific statement, but, by definition, it couldn't debunk non-physical/natural claims of the Bible, of which there are many. With 2, I think 'science' could theoretically debunk those non-physical/natural claims of the Bible, but this 'science' is what many people would call philosophy, so I'm not sure it is a helpful definition of 'science'.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

We may see. And semantic diddling is irrelevant. I mean what one defines as science or not matters nothing. What does matter is what on evidence and reason undermines what the Bible says, records or claims.

We already know the degrees of denial about Genesis. The 'scientific' evidence is that the events never happened, nor could happen. I know that there have been many efforts to wangle it in various ways, but that only shows they know it doesn't work as the Bible actually says.

There are doubts about the origins of the rivals of Israel (Edom, Moab) as lesser sons of Lot and doubts about the Exodus. Doubts about the siege of Jerusalem (whether Assyria was smitten or Hezekiah surrendered), but not so much about the prophecies of Tyre. It was not eradicated. It didn't even need much rebuilding. It was there in Jesus' day and Paul's (1) It is still there today.
The much trowelled - over Daniel is dateable to 162 BC or something like - just before the Maccabean revolt and i reckon is a rallying cry for the revolt, cast as a prophecy of success 500 years before. The 'prediction' can be matched to the actual history until that date, when it fails. The evidence is convincing that at least the Believer take on Daniel is wrong. Cue Denial.

Nt, starts with the nativity, demonstrably false. Cue denial. Luke flounders right away with a massively elaborated 'rejection at Nazareth' at the start of the mission, discrediting him still further. There is addition (Herod's involvement in the trial, the penitent thief), fiddling (the calling of disciples combines with the haul of fish) and the anointing at Bethany disguised (why? 8-) ) and moved to Galilee and his own creations, like surely the parables some of the most famous of which aren't in the other synoptics. Cue the usual excuses. They will not wash with anyone willing to question (2).

Matthew is just as bad and a bit crazier. (descending angel and opening graves). But he does like his OT as a source of 'Prophecy' (which he does not appear to understand). I think he and Luke used a separate source ("Q") with material they both added to their gospels (not in Mark (3) and in different places. Mainly the 'sermon' material, but also John's question. But not (obviously) the nativities, death of Judas or the resurrection, all of which contradict each other.

John of course is very different, cue excuses and flummery like talking of 'Jerusalem material' like that explained why the Palsied man takes up his bed and walks in Jerusalem in John but in Galilee in the synoptics. Which may also explain why we have no Bar - Timaeus but a blind man healed in Jerusalem with a Very dubious wrangle with the Priests following. And a young man raised from the dead, a stunning miracle virtually ignored in the synoptics - except Luke has the son of the woman of Nain raised from the dead - Raised From The Dead - in a sort of routine way like curing his hiccups. There' the clue, I think, to how the gospels were concocted, fabricated and fiddled and have been foisted on us ever since.

This is the internal evidence of the Bible, but there is external reason to doubt. There is no Passover release known. It is incredible that in all the histories nobody even mentioned this major way of weleasing wapscallions. Also the Passover date seems fabricated (for doctrinal reasons) while the story seems to place the events at Sukkhot. One reason why I think many of the events are real, but didn't fit the Christian narrative, so had to be changed.

But debunks - logical if not scientific. No angelic message in John. No appearance in the evening in Matthew and no appearance to the women in Luke or John. Matthew had to add that and surely never saw Luke's gospel nor Luke, Matthew's gospel. Or he would have altered it as he did the angelic message because he knew Paul's letters and the disciples had not gone to Galilee nor spread the word to all nations, but had stayed in Jerusalem and Paul had taken on that mission. So he wrote Acts to cover that.

Cue denial. I may have to ague any and all of this. I know because of the debates about the differing dates of Passover and about the women splitting up which have NO evidence or merit in the Bible or without, but rely on "The Bible is true, so any excuse will do".

(1) I have to mention one excuse which was nearly 'Sauce' (or cheek) "They didn't rebuild Tyre - they put a different city on top and just called it the same name". How far will denial go?

(2) this is the thing - they do not rely on a good case but on the great majority being willing to believe the excuses.

(3) I further claim a Theory I haven't heard with Ehrman or anyone else, that Mark also has additions not found in Matthew or Luke which means that Mark is also a version of an earlier gospel. Further, that Mark and Matthew share common material not found in Luke - The "Great omission"; a smokescreen title that is supposed to explain why when it doesn't explain anything.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by Data »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:19 pm
Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:12 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:36 pm No Science does debunk the Bible.
For the purpose of this debate science is defined 1as the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained; 2a branch of knowledge; a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind. Debunk is defined as to expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief) as well as to reduce the inflated reputation of (someone), especially by ridicule.

Question for debate: Is this true? Does science debunk the Bible and if so, how?
You seem to me to have two different concepts of 'science' within the definitions you gave, to where 'science' picks up 2 very different concepts. With 1, I think it would be logically impossible for science to debunk the Bible by its very definition. It could debunk certain interpretations of certain Biblical passages, where one thinks the Bible is making a scientific statement, but, by definition, it couldn't debunk non-physical/natural claims of the Bible, of which there are many. With 2, I think 'science' could theoretically debunk those non-physical/natural claims of the Bible, but this 'science' is what many people would call philosophy, so I'm not sure it is a helpful definition of 'science'.
I gave the Oxford dictionary definition of science and debunk because I wanted to leave the topic open to a broad range of intepretation. It's common for skeptics to make the claim that science debunks the Bible. Okay, what does that mean? Other than a general defintion of debunk, which is basically ridicule, I haven't seen any evidence of debunking of the Bible, so it's left up to the interpretation of the individual. If they mean knowledge, let's go with that. You mention certain passages where the Bible is making a scientific statement. Let's go with that, then. To me, though, under those circumstances, disagreement between science and the Bible doesn't constitute one debunking the other, but that's my take on it. Someone else may disagree. Philosophy? Not an interest of mine but I'm always willing to try to learn. I think of a debate as more of an exchange than a contest.
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

...a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind.
I'm with Tanager on this, definition #2 is far too broad to be useful; if science is {quote} "knowledge of any kind" then the bible itself is a source if "science" , so under this definition the question is : Can science debunk science?
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:47 am
...a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject and even knowledge of any kind.
I'm with Tanager on this, definition #2 is far too broad to be useful; if science is {quote} "knowledge of any kind" then the bible itself is a source if "science" , so under this definition the question is : Can science debunk science?
Isn't that the point of science? To debunk itself? Doesn't the light (knowledge), as the JWs say, get brighter? To me I could have just asked has the Bible ever been debunked? I think it is subjective. To one person the Bible could be said to have been "debunked" by science because it "says the universe was created in 144 hours six thousand years ago," or "it says the earth is flat." But to someone who knows better that isn't actually the case.
Last edited by Data on Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by 1213 »

Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:12 am ... Does science debunk the Bible and if so, how?
No, it doesn't debunk the Bible.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

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Post by The Tanager »

Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:01 pmI gave the Oxford dictionary definition of science and debunk because I wanted to leave the topic open to a broad range of intepretation. It's common for skeptics to make the claim that science debunks the Bible. Okay, what does that mean? Other than a general defintion of debunk, which is basically ridicule, I haven't seen any evidence of debunking of the Bible, so it's left up to the interpretation of the individual. If they mean knowledge, let's go with that.
I completely agree with you. I don’t see clearly defining how one is using a concept as irrelevant diddling (per transponder), but vital to any discussion. It matters a lot. Especially with a term that is used to convey different concepts. So often we end up talking past each other because we don’t diddle the term enough.
Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:01 pmYou mention certain passages where the Bible is making a scientific statement. Let's go with that, then. To me, though, under those circumstances, disagreement between science and the Bible doesn't constitute one debunking the other, but that's my take on it. Someone else may disagree.
I actually don’t think the Bible makes many, if any, scientific claims, although that may depend on how one is defining ‘scientific’.
Data wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:01 pmPhilosophy? Not an interest of mine but I'm always willing to try to learn. I think of a debate as more of an exchange than a contest.
I think an exchange is much better than a debate or contest format as well. I’m with you there. But I do think philosophy is often misunderstood. I think the fact is that everyone does philosophy. It’s critical thinking and having reasons for our beliefs, etc. It lies under most of our beliefs, especially the ones talked about in a forum like this.

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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #9

Post by Data »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:03 pm We already know the degrees of denial about Genesis. The 'scientific' evidence is that the events never happened, nor could happen.
Do we? What evidence? Instead of making vague unsupported claims, demonstrate the evidence. Let's just start there.
Last edited by Data on Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Science Debunk The Bible?

Post #10

Post by Data »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:22 am I actually don’t think the Bible makes many, if any, scientific claims, although that may depend on how one is defining ‘scientific’.
Yeah, the Bible isn't a science book, and really what we have, in my opinion, as far as the conflict with the Bible and science, legitimately, is the supernatural, which isn't fair to ask science to address and therefore unfair of "science" minded skeptics to criticize other than belief in the supernatural is difficult to believe. So, I've always looked at them as highly intelligent extraterrestrial beings which possess powers and different forms than we possess. A skeptic may have doubts about extraterrestrial beings in general but they would be much more likely to dismiss an "angel" or "ghost" than they would "an ET." "Miraculous" events in the Bible, as performed by the prophets, disciples, spirit beings, or Jesus were always dependent upon Jehovah God's holy spirit, or active force. Healing, walking on water, for example. Spirit beings can obviously do things of their own accord, Satan and his army of "angels" for example, the rebellious angels in tartarus, being examples.

For me the real conflict is Darwinian evolution, the flood of Noah's day and the case of God making the sun appear to stop and go back for Joshua.

Most of the conflict between science and the Bible comes in the form of ignorance of scripture. For example, Pi, bats and birds, expressions wrongly interpreted to mean flat earth, rabbits chewing their cud.
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