What the ORIGINAL SIN really is. And why Christians are guilty of it

[Avoice]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

[onewithhim]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

I didn’t ask for “evidence” of your position. I asked for teachers/preachers in the Bible speaking out your position when they spoke of the subject. Of course anyone can twist the words.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."...

. Notice sin entered THE WORLD not man himself just as God said to Cain. Sin was OUTSIDE of him and God Almighty said so in plain language.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Notice “many” not ALL. I believe you said no one can please God. Noah pleased God. Enoch pleased God. Daniel pleased God.

This shows that you really don't read carefully posts from others. I never said that "no one can please God." Anyone can please God if they do their best to follow His directions, showing Him respect and gratitude.

[onewithhim]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

I didn’t ask for “evidence” of your position. I asked for teachers/preachers in the Bible speaking out your position when they spoke of the subject. Of course anyone can twist the words.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."...

. Notice sin entered THE WORLD not man himself just as God said to Cain. Sin was OUTSIDE of him and God Almighty said so in plain language.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Notice “many” not ALL. I believe you said no one can please God. Noah pleased God. Enoch pleased God. Daniel pleased God.

Because of Adam's sin, he had to pass along to his offspring his sinful nature (because someone imperfect, after he sinned, cannot pass on perfection to his children).

For that position you have NO quote nor “evidence” of that.

Therefore we are all born with a sinful inclination.

No Bible author said this which is why you have NO quote.

But God doesn't expect us to be sinless in this life.

Where did He say that?

Isn't that why He sent His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to die (because the wages of sin is death)?

No, He said he sent Jesus to free us from doing wrong to one other, not merely avoid the consequences.

We can't use that as an excuse to willfully sin. As John wrote, there is sinning that incurs death and also sinning that does incur death. If we deliberately sin, then we are in line for death. No one can say that their inbred sinful nature "made them do it."

"If you see a Christian sinning in a way that does not end in death [inbred sin], you should ask God to forgive him and God will give him life, unless he has sinned that one fatal sin [deliberate sin]. But there is that one sin which ends in death [deliberate sin] and if he has done that, there is no use praying for him. Every wrong is a sin, of course. I'm not talking about these ordinary sins [inbred]; I am speaking of that one that ends in death," [deliberate sin]." (I John 5:16,17, Living Bible)

Two responses, one is, do you excuse your rudeness above with telling yourself you didn’t “mean to be rude” and two, or do you excuse yourself by telling yourself it’s just your sin nature?

I think you do so because you don’t like someone challenging a much beloved comfort.

Regarding sin,”without holiness shall no man see God.” That is, no man can begin to approach that Hindu state of “one with him” who isn’t holy as God knows holy to be.

I don't know what you mean when you say I was rude. How was I rude? I answer you in the same spirit that you post to me. Are we both "rude"? If I was rude, I didn't realize it, and I would say that I should pray for forgiveness.

I don't mind people "challenging a much beloved comfort." I welcome a respectful conversation. You have made it a contentious conversation, unfortunately.

[Mae von H]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

I didn’t ask for “evidence” of your position. I asked for teachers/preachers in the Bible speaking out your position when they spoke of the subject. Of course anyone can twist the words.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."...

. Notice sin entered THE WORLD not man himself just as God said to Cain. Sin was OUTSIDE of him and God Almighty said so in plain language.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Notice “many” not ALL. I believe you said no one can please God. Noah pleased God. Enoch pleased God. Daniel pleased God.

This shows that you really don't read carefully posts from others. I never said that "no one can please God." Anyone can please God if they do their best to follow His directions, showing Him respect and gratitude.

Ah, so the supposed sin nature doesn’t prevent anyone from pleasing
Him now, right? Hmmmm

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #43]

That is correct.

[Mae von H]

The church claims man has been infected with the "original sin." Its defined by the church as being unable to please God. That we are all doomed. And only killing a good guy named Jesus can save us.
No one is infected with anything. Its just a cop out. An excuse to failure.
Do you think such a concept insoires people to try harder or an excuse

An excuse for sure. I’ve even experienced christians who wronged someone saying, “It wasn’t me. It was my sin nature.” No asking forgiveness (why ask forgiveness for a nature you were born with?)

We must ask forgiveness because our sinful nature inclines us to do wrong things.

That’s not the reason the Bible gives as to why we sin. It says it’s because we want and don’t have.

Most of the time we don't mean to, but we do, and then ask God to forgive us.

Ah, the perfect example of this theology allowing people to excuse instead of admit their sin. “The thief didn’t mean it…the rapist didn’t mean it…” Leaves the pride completely in tact.

A Christian is wrong to blame what they do on their sinful nature.

You just did.

Jude indicated that it is not an excuse to sin....never may that happen. (Jude 3,4)

Then ought not say we sin because of some inborn error. You ought to say you sin because “you want and don’t have.”

We ask forgiveness because we love YHWH and want to please Him.

We “love” a being whose handle is four consonants which has no vowels so it cannot be spoken? Do you then write him letters since you can’t pronounce his handle? It’s better to love the being Jesus SPOKE of and um, loving said Being is not defined by Him as us admitting we didn’t “mean to do” wrong to others. Those who excuse themselves with “they didn’t mean it” aren’t asking forgiveness.

If we mess up, we feel impelled to ask Him to keep us in His favor. There's a difference between inherited sin and willful sinning.

Ah, now doing wrong is reduced to just “messing up” like leaving the kitchen a mess after cooking. Confessing “messing up” doesn’t result in His favor. That requires humbling.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? Have you actually read the whole Bible? Just asking.

I’ve read it through many times. Have you? If so, please provide a few OT and NT passages that tell a man that he sinned because of an inborn sin nature.

Yes, I have read the whole Bible. It's kind of funny that you haven't seen evidence throughout of man having an inborn sin nature.

I didn’t ask for “evidence” of your position. I asked for teachers/preachers in the Bible speaking out your position when they spoke of the subject. Of course anyone can twist the words.

"Just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."...

. Notice sin entered THE WORLD not man himself just as God said to Cain. Sin was OUTSIDE of him and God Almighty said so in plain language.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one man many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12,19)

Notice “many” not ALL. I believe you said no one can please God. Noah pleased God. Enoch pleased God. Daniel pleased God.

Because of Adam's sin, he had to pass along to his offspring his sinful nature (because someone imperfect, after he sinned, cannot pass on perfection to his children).

For that position you have NO quote nor “evidence” of that.

Therefore we are all born with a sinful inclination.

No Bible author said this which is why you have NO quote.

But God doesn't expect us to be sinless in this life.

Where did He say that?

Isn't that why He sent His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to die (because the wages of sin is death)?

No, He said he sent Jesus to free us from doing wrong to one other, not merely avoid the consequences.

We can't use that as an excuse to willfully sin. As John wrote, there is sinning that incurs death and also sinning that does incur death. If we deliberately sin, then we are in line for death. No one can say that their inbred sinful nature "made them do it."

"If you see a Christian sinning in a way that does not end in death [inbred sin], you should ask God to forgive him and God will give him life, unless he has sinned that one fatal sin [deliberate sin]. But there is that one sin which ends in death [deliberate sin] and if he has done that, there is no use praying for him. Every wrong is a sin, of course. I'm not talking about these ordinary sins [inbred]; I am speaking of that one that ends in death," [deliberate sin]." (I John 5:16,17, Living Bible)

Two responses, one is, do you excuse your rudeness above with telling yourself you didn’t “mean to be rude” and two, or do you excuse yourself by telling yourself it’s just your sin nature?

I think you do so because you don’t like someone challenging a much beloved comfort.

Regarding sin,”without holiness shall no man see God.” That is, no man can begin to approach that Hindu state of “one with him” who isn’t holy as God knows holy to be.

I don't know what you mean when you say I was rude. How was I rude?

I believe you don’t know. But when you refuse to answer a challenging question but instead insult the education of the one asking, that's rude.

I answer you in the same spirit that you post to me.

No, I didn’t assume you don’t know the Bible but in fact assumed you do and asked for references.

Are we both "rude"? If I was rude, I didn't realize it, and I would say that I should pray for forgiveness.

Actually you should admit you were and ask me for pardon.

I don't mind people "challenging a much beloved comfort." I welcome a respectful conversation. You have made it a contentious conversation, unfortunately.

You are fooling yourself. You don’t like a challenge at all. This is evidenced by 1) refusing to address my points and 2) again sinking to the ad hominem response.

Just supply scripture where someone sharing the gospel told the hears they have a sin nature but God has a cure.

[Mae von H]

I will let you Aristotelian theology of original sin adherents alone. I already know there isn’t a single writer of the Bible who said we all inherited Adam’s sin in our nature from birth. I know it’s a very comforting excuse for your sin and so it’s likely pointless to go much farther. It’s really poking the bear.

For those desiring truth, the Biblical view is we sin because we want and don’t have. We sin on purpose in pursuit of what pleases us. I will say that this excuse for sin has never generated anything but a lazy careless attitude towards sin and it’s easy to see why. It’s not really your fault. Seems to
also make those who embrace this theology blind to their own sin and as a result often personally insulting towards opponents.

[JehovahsWitness]

...there isn’t a single writer of the Bible who said we all inherited Adam’s sin in our nature from birth

ROMANS 5:12

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men ...

PSALM 51:5

Look! I was born guilty of error and my mother conceived me in sin

1 JOHN 1:8

If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us

RELATED POSTS

What was the "original sin"?
viewtopic.php?p=1139520#p1139520

What is "atonement"?
viewtopic.php?p=1042433#p1042433

For more details please go to other posts related to...

ADAM , SIN and ... THE ORIGINAL SIN

[Data]

Hello. First off, I don't particularly like terms like original sin in discussions like this because they are so possibly broad in application and subjective; subject to interpretation. They may be useful in a broad sense, but that can be misleading if other implications are being made, as would be the case in the specific dogma of a specific group. It's best to circumnavigate any such dogma and go straight to the source, the Bible. Secondly, I don't take seriously anything any "church" (another broad and subjective term) says. Having said that, let's define sin. Sin is a transliteration, meaning to miss the target or set goal. For example, an archer who sinned didn't hit the target. Very simple. I sin against my boss if I'm late for work, against the government if I exceed the speed limit. The mark set by Jehovah God, in this case, was also simple. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of what is good and what is bad. Doing so brought the foretold result of death to Adam, as opposed to the everlasting life he meant to have.

The question becomes have we been "infected with it?" I wouldn't use that term, because what actually happened is we inherited it. Think about the implications in modern language; infected being affected with a disease-causing organism and inherited being received as an heir at the death of the previous holder.

The Sin of Adam and Eve was to believe the "serpent", who said they would live forever if they believed him, and broke the rules given by God.

No, you miss the point by deviating from the meaning of the word and pursuing that flawed logic as a premise due to emotional reasoning. The breaking of the rules was the sin, which you would get if you reflect honestly on the definition of sin I gave you. You can't break God's laws if there are no laws. You can't break a rule if the rule doesn't exist. Sinning doesn't just mean to think or believe something. And Adam didn't believe the "serpent" anyway. That wasn't his motivation. In fact, Adam knew that Eve had been deceived because it was her possible death which God had promised which was his motivation to disobey in the first place. He didn't want to live knowing that she was going to die. It was the breaking of the rules, the missing of the mark which was the sin. Not the belief which led to it or the motivation behind it.

If they had believed Satan but obeyed God they would have lived.

That is the same message given by the false prophet Paul, and now his "many" followers, are on the wide road to "destruction" (Mt 7:12-15). They have substituted the objective laws given by God for the subjected laws of their own twisted minds and hearts. Apparently, that doesn't work out well. Just look at the "woke" whose manmade laws, aimed at curing every ill, are disastrous.

Oh, boy . . . more woke noise from the land of illusion. Ironically in battle it becomes difficult to distinguish the oppressor from the oppressed. Never gets old watching them charging into battle like mindless but furious zombies. Always missing everything around them but their ideological obsession.

[boatsnguitars]

Hello. First off, I don't particularly like terms like original sin in discussions like this because they are so possibly broad in application and subjective; subject to interpretation. They may be useful in a broad sense, but that can be misleading if other implications are being made, as would be the case in the specific dogma of a specific group. It's best to circumnavigate any such dogma and go straight to the source, the Bible. Secondly, I don't take seriously anything any "church" (another broad and subjective term) says. Having said that, let's define sin. Sin is a transliteration, meaning to miss the target or set goal. For example, an archer who sinned didn't hit the target. Very simple. I sin against my boss if I'm late for work, against the government if I exceed the speed limit. The mark set by Jehovah God, in this case, was also simple. Don't touch or eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of what is good and what is bad. Doing so brought the foretold result of death to Adam, as opposed to the everlasting life he meant to have.

The question becomes have we been "infected with it?" I wouldn't use that term, because what actually happened is we inherited it. Think about the implications in modern language; infected being affected with a disease-causing organism and inherited being received as an heir at the death of the previous holder.

The Sin of Adam and Eve was to believe the "serpent", who said they would live forever if they believed him, and broke the rules given by God.

No, you miss the point by deviating from the meaning of the word and pursuing that flawed logic as a premise for emotional reasoning. The breaking of the rules was the sin, which you would get if you reflect honestly on the definition of sin I gave you. You can't break God's laws if there are no laws. You can't break a rule if the rule doesn't exist. Sinning doesn't just mean to think or believe something. And Adam didn't believe the "serpent" anyway. That wasn't his motivation. In fact, Adam knew that Eve had been deceived because it was her possible death which God had promised which was his motivation to disobey in the first place. He didn't want to live knowing that she was going to die. It was the breaking of the rules, the missing of the mark which was the sin. Not the belief which led to it or the motivation behind it.

If they had believed Satan but obeyed God they would have lived.

That is the same message given by the false prophet Paul, and now his "many" followers, are on the wide road to "destruction" (Mt 7:12-15). They have substituted the objective laws given by God for the subjected laws of their own twisted minds and hearts. Apparently, that doesn't work out well. Just look at the "woke" whose manmade laws, aimed at curing every ill, are disastrous.

Oh, boy . . . more woke noise from the land of illusion. Ironically in battle it becomes difficult to distinguish the oppressor from the oppressed. Never gets old watching them charging into battle like mindless but furious zombies. Always missing everything around them but their ideological obsession.

Why didn't God stop the serpent? BTW, what does "woke" mean to you?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #49]

God didn't stop the serpent because He wanted to give Adam and Eve the opportunity to show their love for Him by rejecting Satan's accusations and refusing to act on his lies. Then He let Satan live because He wanted to give all of humanity the honor of rejecting Satan as well. After all, Satan had said that a man would do just about anything to save his own life, and would reject God to His face. (Job 2:4,5) God wanted to prove Satan wrong, and there HAVE been millions who reject Satan's lies.