Jesus is not an angel #2

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Wootah
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Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

Wootah wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:04 pm
Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”

In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
How can Jesus be an angel if he was temporarily lower than the angels?

Wouldn't it say he was temporarily the lowest of the angels?
A new argument!

Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that God has subjected the world to come.

Revelation 17:14O
They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.

God has not subjected the world to angels.

God has subjected the world to Jesus.

Therefore Jesus cannot be an angel.

Rebuttals?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

IS JESUS ONE OF THE ANGELS?

No, Paul clearly indicated Jesus is not just "one of the angels". The angels are all the spirit creatures used by God (and / or Jesus) as messengers. They are "messenger spirits" if you like (The word angel in the original language of the bible simply means "messenger") Jesus is not one of those he is, the Archangel meaning chief or head of the angels. The Leader of the angels.

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Just as a General is not one of the footsoldiers; Jesus is not "one of the angels"

Is an Archangel not also an angel? Not necessarily. If the LION is King of the jungle, that doesnt make him an elephant or a zebra. All angels are all spirits (just as all the creatures in the jungle are animals) but not all spirits are "angels" (as in "messenger spirits"). Spirit creatures have different ranks and position and Jesus is completely different in that he is the highest of the highest of God's creation.

Is Jesus not called "an angel" in scripture? There are passages that generally are applied to Jesus , where the individual is described as "an angel". For example in the book of Exodus we read of an angel that leads the Israeilites from Egypt, or in Revelation we read of a "strong angel" of the abyss that enchains Satan the Devil * but these are simply descriptions of Jesus in the role of MESSENGER of God.
To illustrate: a King might deliver a letter but that doesn't make him a postman. He's just acting in the role for that occassion but he is still a KING (not a postman).
[ * ] Jesus is no more a literally "one of the angels" (ie of the rank of angel) than he is "a star" or a "lamb", but (like the King that delivers a letter) Jesus can be described as "an angel" when he does God's bidding.
CONCLUSIONS Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe Jesus is "one of the angels" but that He is the one and only Commander and Chief over the angels. Like Paul we believe Jesus far superior in rank and authority to the angels but also that Jesus has on occassions humbly taken on the role of "angel" in service to his Father.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

MICHAEL , ANGELS , and ...THE HEAVENLY CALLING
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #3

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

An angel is a heavenly being. I expect them to be different species if that is appropriate but all angels. Yes angel means messenger as well. Anyone carrying the good news to someone else is an 'angel'.

Where in the Bible is Jesus an archangel and I guess for this thread where does the Bible say archangels are not angels?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #4

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #5

Post by Wootah »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 1:28 pm [Replying to Wootah in post #3]

Wootah, may I ask a question? Was Jesus the one that was in the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night when leading the Israelites out of Egypt?
It was God for sure. I think it was Jesus yes. I am open on the question. I'll do some research on it and get back to you
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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #6

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

It seems far plainer that the writer of hebrews was thinking of all the created spiritual beings and not categorising the different types of created spiritual beings.

Do you agree that if the writer of hebrews was considering all spiritual beings then my argument would prove Jesus is not an angel?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #7

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:28 pm IS JESUS ONE OF THE ANGELS?

No, Paul clearly indicated Jesus is not just "one of the angels". The angels are all the spirit creatures used by God (and / or Jesus) as messengers. They are "messenger spirits" if you like (The word angel in the original language of the bible simply means "messenger") Jesus is not one of those he is, the Archangel meaning chief or head of the angels. The Leader of the angels.
Your view of an Archangel differs from that of the JW site which correctly states, ¨God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.”¨.

Now, if you break the word "arch-angel" into its compound words you will notice that both are singular words, "Chief" & "angel". The very title of archangel identifies Michael/Christ as THE chief angel. Why is this important? Because Christ is not only chief angel of the angelic beings but also of the earthly angels (the people of God). You see, the Bible uses the word "angel" interchangeable with the word "messenger". So much so that many often get confused whenever they read whichever word the translators decided to use everytime this Hebrew or Greek word appeared in the Bible. You see, the translators used "angel" and "messenger" depending on the context in order to "help" the reader as thought best. So, according to the Bible, an angel/messenger applies to Christ, angelic beings, and true believers. This is what makes Christ is the chief angel/messenger.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV 1900)
Behold, I will send my messenger (angel - malak), and he shall prepare the way before me:
And the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,
Even the messenger (angel - malak) of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.


So, Jesus is most certainly called an angel/messenger because he is the chief angel/messenger.

Now, this brings up the question of the OP regarding how this fact harmonizes with Hebrews 2:7&9.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900)
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Now, this passage is being quoted from Psalms 8:5, and when we study it, we uncover a great mystery which helps us understand Hebrews 2:7&9.

Psalm 8:5 (KJV 1900)
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
And hast crowned him with glory and honour.


On the surface the phrase, "a little lower than the angels" seems like a word for word quote, but we dig deeper and discover that the word "angels" translated in Psalms 8:5 is not at all the word "angels", as a matter of fact, this Hebrew word appears over 2,600 times in the OT and this is the one and only time that the translators took it upon themselves to translate it as "angels". Perhaps because they came across Hebrews 2:7&9 and saw that the actual Greek word for "angels" (angelos) was being used and figured they'd go back and make Psalm 8:5 read the same way. But that's not the word God used in Psalm 8:5, instead, God, in his wisdom used the word "ELOHIM".

So, let's go ahead and read it the way it should have been translated:

Psalm 8:5 (KJV 1900)
For thou hast made him a little lower than ELOHIM,
And hast crowned him with glory and honour.


Christ was made a little lower than GOD for the suffering of death. Also, notice the similarities between the word ELOHIM and ANGELOS, being that BOTH are plural words. And since ELOHIM being plural is describing a single entity (GOD) this means that ANGELOS is doing the same thing because Hebrews 2:7 is a direct quote from Psalm 8:5, with the only difference being that God decided to change the word ELOHIM with ANGELOS. So, we have to ask the question, does JEHOVAH GOD describe himself as an angel? ABSOLUTELY HE DOES.

All we have to do is to study every instance "the angel of the LORD (JEHOVAH)" appeared in the OT and we can only conclude that they are none other than GOD himself. Here is one example:

Genesis 22:11–12 (KJV 1900)
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son FROM ME.


At first it seems like the angel of the Lord is speaking in God's stead when he says, "for now I know that thou fearest God", but then, just when we would expect this angel to continue to follow through as a mediator speaker and refer to God as a separate entity, he says, "thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son FROM ME.[/color]". We know that Abraham did not withhold his son from an angel, but from JEHOVAH himself.

And so many more examples could be given that assure us of the fact that the word "ANGELOS" in Hebrews 2:7&9 is not a reference to angelic beings at all but to GOD himself. What throws people off is the fact that Hebrews 2:5 does refer to angelic beings, so they naturally (and incorrectly) carry that idea over to the rest of the text without giving it a second thought. And the use of plurality in both the New and Old Testamnent word for "Elohim/angels" also teaches us that while God is one God, he manifests himself in 3 persons.

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:28 pm IS JESUS ONE OF THE ANGELS?

No, Paul clearly indicated Jesus is not just "one of the angels". The angels are all the spirit creatures used by God (and / or Jesus) as messengers. They are "messenger spirits" if you like (The word angel in the original language of the bible simply means "messenger") Jesus is not one of those he is, the Archangel meaning chief or head of the angels. The Leader of the angels. [...] Spirit creatures have different ranks and position and Jesus is completely different in that he is the highest of the highest of God's creation.

Your view of an Archangel differs from that of the JW site ...



No it does not.
Image
source: glossary watchtower library : https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001077023
CHIEF:
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
1.
a leader or ruler of a people or clan.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

CAN JESUS BE DESCRIBED AS AN ANGEL?

Remember, though, that the basic meaning of “angel” (Hebrew, mal·’akhʹ; Greek, agʹge·los) is “messenger.” As the “Word” (Greek, loʹgos), Jesus is God’s messenger par excellence. - Watchtower December 15, 1984 p 26
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:28 pm Is Jesus not called "an angel" in scripture? There are passages that generally are applied to Jesus , where the individual is described as "an angel". For example in the book of Exodus we read of an angel that leads the Israeilites from Egypt, or in Revelation we read of a "strong angel" of the abyss that enchains Satan the Devil * but these are simply descriptions of Jesus in the role of MESSENGER of God.
The Chief One over all the angels is Jesus Christ, the Word, the lone archangel, Michael. (Dan. 12:1; John 1:1; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7) He is also termed the angel or the messenger of the covenant at Malachi 3:1 and is the angel referred to at Revelation 20:1, 2 that binds Satan and his demons and casts them into the abyss of death for a thousand years. Without a doubt he also was the angel God appointed to lead the sons of Israel during their wilderness trek: “Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road . . . my angel will go ahead of you.” “The angel of his person saved them.”—Ex. 23:20-23; Isa. 63:9, ftn. The Watchtower January 15, 1961 p. 57
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:28 pm
To illustrate: a King might deliver a letter but that doesn't make him a postman. He's just acting in the role for that occassion but he is still a KING (not a postman).
[ * ] Jesus is no more a literally "one of the angels" (ie of the rank of angel) than he is "a star" or a "lamb", but (like the King that delivers a letter) Jesus can be described as "an angel" when he does God's bidding.
RELATED POSTS

Is Jesus of the same rank as the angels?
viewtopic.php?p=1144271#p1144271
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is not an angel #2

Post #10

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]

Where is Jesus called anything that supports your view of who you think he is?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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