Money!

[POI]

Otseng states the following: "No, being rich is not bad. We have many rich men in the Bible (Abraham, Joseph, Job, David, Solomon, Matthew, Joseph of Arimathea, etc.) and they were not condemned for being rich."

Otseng, and myself, had a recent discussion about Jesus's mention of the rich. He ultimately expressed the above. In an effort to keep the other topic on track, I'm making this new one.

For debate:

1. Is being 'rich' a relative term, or is it instead objective when Jesus/God identifies you as 'rich'?
2. How do you know if Jesus/God deems you as rich or not?
3. Seems Otseng is saying that being rich can change your focus. Money instead becomes your numero uno, or God. And this is why he tells folks to get rid of it, so they no longer prioritize the money/possessions over God. Is this the gist of it here?
4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"? Or did he even have a choice?
5. Would Jesus rather you be rich or poor, and why? Would he choose for you to instead be poor because he knows you may covet these material possessions over him? If so, isn't being rich worse than being poor, according to Jesus?
6. If being rich is such a high risk for no longer keeping your focus on numero uno, (Jesus), then why do so many Christians strive to become rich?

[TRANSPONDER]

4. If being rich is okay, why did Jesus choose to be "poor"?

My answer is, he was not poor, because he had everything he needed.

You are just equivocating to avoid answering the question. Look carefully at the title of this OP. We are talking about money in regards to the terms 'rich' and 'poor'.

But money is a poor measure. People can have lot of money, but still be poor. For example when inflation is high, people can have lot of money, but they don't get much with it. And it seems, value of all fiat money, like dollar, is eventually zero.

That's really a poor argument. Even evasive. The rate of inflation is not the issue, nor indeed the value of one currency against another, but how much of it you have. And even that is not the point, but how one regards money - tokens of exchange or what life is all about.

The point about 'coveting' is well taken. I have seen it. If someone has something, the coveter has to have one and even better. Ok, again this is about life lessons and avoiding pointless greed. It is interesting that the gospels betray an only too human reverence for riches, oh yes they do. While they want the loyalty of the crowd for support, Arimathea was a rich man it says and not a word about him giving his money to the poor. But then the rich young Rulerwas an outsider who had to hand it all over and put himself under the control of the religion. Arimathea seems to be rather an insider, and he can keep his wealth because Jesus and the 12 can sponge off him, frankly.

[POI]

The topic is about money. He had none. If he did not need money, then why do you need it? Why don't you get rid of it, like he tells others to do? Do you covet money over Jesus? If you say you don't, actions speak louder than words. It's quite easy to say you do not covet your money, while keeping your money.

Ok, then why did you speak about being rich or poor? Money has not much to do with those.

Yes, it does. I suggest you re-read the OP. Money has everything to do with the OP.

It seems to me that you have some weird definition for covet = To feel strong or immoderate desire for (that which is another's).

For too many, money is their "god". Many desire to acquire more of it. Many speak of money every day. Heck, many have jobs which manage other people's money, or work in the stock market, trade in the stock market, work for a bank, speak about retirement (how they are going to achieve it), etc etc etc........

I don't think I covet money, even if I have some money. For me money is only a medium of exchange, I only have it for example to get food. I get rid of money, by changing it to something useful.

So, you only keep exactly what you need and give away all the rest? You do not save for retirement, save for a rainy day, save for vacation(s), save for your kids, save for anything at all?

As I told another, why not just get rid of all your money, to be on the safe side? Jesus is not a fan of money/possessions, according to his words from the Bible.

But, why do you think Jesus tells others to get rid of money?

Because you cannot serve two masters. If you completely get rid of money/possessions, your head then becomes clear, and you keep your focus on Jesus/God. If you keep some of your money/possessions, you instead become distracted. And Jesus no likey.

[JehovahsWitness]

WAS JESUS POOR?


I think its fair to say that the bible narrative presents Jesus as being born into a financially modest family. BY all accounts Joseph worked hard to provide for his family but they were evidently far from wealthy. That said poor is defined as

POOR
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
adjective
1.
lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society.

And there is no reason to believe Jesus ever lacked the basics or was considered to live below the financial norms of his day. So to answer the question while Jesus could not have been considered a financially wealty man, he would surely not have been "poor".

PROVERBS 30:7

Give me neither poverty nor riches

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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[2ndpillar2]

if you want to be "perfect, you will have to give all you have to the poor and then follow me. It is about priorities. A hint to the wise, it is easier to give all you have when you are young and poor.

Is giving away all you have a requirement, or not? If it is not, why mention it at all?

It is a requirement for becoming "perfect". The best the "rich man", who wanted to keep his money, was to become righteous and enter into life (Mt 19), by keeping the Commandments, which is different from becoming perfect.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #23]

I'll give you a rare thumbs up as that is a reasonable proposal. It might even be true. After all, just when I'm about ready to put the whole thing down as mythology, I see clearly a true story behind the Christian facade that they couldn't totally paint over.

[POI]

if you want to be "perfect, you will have to give all you have to the poor and then follow me. It is about priorities. A hint to the wise, it is easier to give all you have when you are young and poor.

Is giving away all you have a requirement, or not? If it is not, why mention it at all?

It is a requirement for becoming "perfect". The best the "rich man", who wanted to keep his money, was to become righteous and enter into life (Mt 19), by keeping the Commandments, which is different from becoming perfect.

Do you need to be considered 'perfect' to get into heaven, or not? If not, then I guess it is neither necessary nor required? So why mention it?

[POI]

WAS JESUS POOR?


I think its fair to say that the bible narrative presents Jesus as being born into a financially modest family. BY all accounts Joseph worked hard to provide for his family but they were evidently far from wealthy. That said poor is defined as

POOR
Definitions from Oxford Languages ·
adjective
1.
lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society.

And there is no reason to believe Jesus ever lacked the basics or was considered to live below the financial norms of his day. So to answer the question while Jesus could not have been considered a financially wealty man, he would surely not have been "poor".

PROVERBS 30:7

Give me neither poverty nor riches

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


RELATED POSTS

Was Jesus a remarkable child?
viewtopic.php?p=1040258#p1040258

Was Jesus a carpenter?
viewtopic.php?p=1141676#p1141676

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JESUS CHRIST, CONCEPTION & BIRTH and ... APPEARANCE

You almost, kind of touched on OP question 4, but not really too much there either.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to 1213 in post #17]


You have a good point. Yes, it is ok to have enough not to worry about managing, enough to do more than that, and indeed having enough that you get whatever you need to have. but be 'ruled' by these things. There are enough tales about people who spent piles of money on stuff they didn't need just because they had it to spend. That's when something has gone wrong.

But this is not actually the lesson of the gospels. It is not about greed or being a wastrel.It is bout God being inclined to bar you from salvation for the sin of not giving all your money to the church, and that, friends is the message of the gospels, and you can bet all your chips on that. if you had any doubt of it, Luke's tale of Annas and Sapphira will hammer the point home - if you want to displease God, just keep half your money back and only give half of all you have to the church.

I actually agree with you. And this tale is especially damning, though I'm sure since it happens in early Christianity and not in Jesus's time, some don't consider it canon. But it's also possible that some people must give it all away (but not all of them) because those some people were essentially drunks and had to quit cold turkey. A drunk can't have a little alcohol, not a real true drunk, because then he's immediately back in it again.

[1213]

So, you only keep exactly what you need and give away all the rest? You do not save for retirement, save for a rainy day, save for vacation(s), save for your kids, save for anything at all?

As I told another, why not just get rid of all your money, to be on the safe side? Jesus is not a fan of money/possessions, according to his words from the Bible.

The "exactly what you need", includes in my opinion that one takes care of his kids. Saving money for future is not a problem. The problem is, if that money begins to rule one, if it becomes more important than God for example.

Because you cannot serve two masters. If you completely get rid of money/possessions, your head then becomes clear, and you keep your focus on Jesus/God. If you keep some of your money/possessions, you instead become distracted. And Jesus no likey.

Funny thing is, many people who have "not enough" money in their opinion, are more focused on money than those who seem to have more. Being without money, doesn't necessary mean that person is not focused on money.

But, it can be true, if person has much money and property, it can become too important for him. One should be careful with it and not let it become the master.

[1213]

The point about 'coveting' is well taken. I have seen it. If someone has something, the coveter has to have one and even better.

Covet means to want something that belongs to another person. It does not mean wanting to have something similar, but wanting to have exactly that what is neighbors. And it is wrong, for example because it can lead to theft. If you want similar things than what your neighbor has, it is not coveting.

Ok, again this is about life lessons and avoiding pointless greed. It is interesting that the gospels betray an only too human reverence for riches, oh yes they do. While they want the loyalty of the crowd for support, Arimathea was a rich man it says and not a word about him giving his money to the poor. But then the rich young Rulerwas an outsider who had to hand it all over and put himself under the control of the religion. Arimathea seems to be rather an insider, and he can keep his wealth because Jesus and the 12 can sponge off him, frankly.

Did Arimathea ask, what should he do to be perfect, like the rich man asked?

I think it would be good to also remember the story about Ananias, which shows, people did not have to give up their money. It is voluntary and people can keep their money, if they want so.

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While you kept it, didn't it remain your own? After it was sold, wasn't it in your power? How is it that you have conceived this thing in your heart? You haven't lied to men, but to God."
Acts 5:3-4

It is also possible Arimathea gave up his money. And later got new money. I think, if all people would live by the teachings of Jesus, they all would become "rich" eventually. And I don't think it is a problem, if the money is not their master.

However there shall be no poor with you; (for Yahweh will surely bless you in the land which Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance to possess it;) if only you diligently listen to the voice of Yahweh your God, to observe to do all this commandment which I command you this day.
Deut. 15:4-5