The consistent events from Jesus' burial to His ascension

[RBD]

Here is the consistent timeline in order from the burial of Jesus, to His ascension 40 days later.

Many women from Galilee follow Joseph and Nicodemus to see Jesus laid in the tomb. Magdalen and the other Mary are specifically mentioned. (John 19) (Mark 15) Afterward that evening, some of the other women go home to prepare spices and ointments for Jesus' body. (Luke 23)

The next day on the high Sabbath, the chief priests go to Pilate for a guard on the tomb. (Matthew 27)

In the night, there's another earthquake, and an angel in appearance as lighting rolls away the stone, making the soldiers become as dead. (Matthew 28) Jesus either resurrects at this time, or any time during the night beforehand. At some time in the night, the guards awaken and depart the empty tomb, to report to the chief priests.

Magdalen comes later in the dark before dawn, and finds the tomb empty. She tells Peter and the other disciple, and they come running to see the tomb empty. They enter to see and depart. (John 20)

Magdalen remains behind and sees two angels in the tomb, and then Jesus Himself alive outside the tomb. She is the first person on earth to see Him after His resurrection. While still dark, she returns again to tell the disciples of His resurrection, and they don't believe it. (John 20) (Mark 16)

Magdalen, the other Mary, Salome, and the other women from Galilee, including Joanna, arrive at the tomb in the morning light. One group arrives with their prepared spices and ointments, while Magdalen's group arrives with bought sweet spices. They find the tomb empty. (Mark 16) (Luke 24)

Magdalen, the other Mary, and Salome are met by the angel that rolled away the stone, and are told to see in the tomb where the Lord had lain. Another angel sitting therein tell them to tell the disciples to go to Galilee to see Jesus. (Matthew 28) (Mark 16) The other women including Joanna enter the tomb and see no one, and while standing outside are met by two more angels, that send them also to the disciples to go to Galilee to meet Jesus. (Luke 24)

All the women depart and en route meet Jesus, and hold His feet in worship. He also sends them all to tell the disciples to meet Him in Galilee. They all then tell the disciples these things, and they don't believe it. (Matthew 28)

Peter runs to the tomb a second time and ponders these things. (Luke 24)

Jesus next appears to Cleopas and another disciple on the road to Emmaus, and later toward evening they recognize Him at table, and He vanishes from their sight. In that hour, they go to the eleven to tell them of Jesus' resurrection. They don't believe it. Luke 24) (Mark 16) Peter has now also seen the Lord Jesus. Paul reports that Jesus also appeared to James at some time.

At evening, Jesus now first appears to the disciples with the others in the their midst, and shows He is indeed resurrected bodily from the dead, and not only a spirit, by showing His hands and side, and eats some fish. Thomas is not with them. (Luke 24) (John 20)

8 days later, He appears to the eleven with Thomas as they sat at meat, and upbraids them for their unbelief, and also challenges Thomas to insert His fingers into his hands, and his hand into Jesus' side. (Mark 16) (John 20)

Afterward on another day, Peter goes a fishin' at the sea of Galilee with 6 other disciples, including Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of thunder, and 2 other disciples. For the third time after His resurrection, Jesus meets His disciples on the Galilee shore with food on a fire. They all know Him. (John 21)

Afterward on another day, all the disciples meet Jesus at the Galilee mount, that He had appointed them, and worshipped Him. Some doubted what to do. (Matthew 28)

On the 40th day after His resurrection, He leads all the disciples and many others to Bethany on Mt Olivet. (Luke 24) (Acts 1) There He gives His great commission with promise of the Holy Ghost, and ascends to heaven to be recieved up in a cloud. The disciples remain standing and looking upward for Jesus, until two angels come to remind them to go to Jerusalem, and wait for the promise of the Father.

These are a consistent order of events from the 4 gospels and Acts 1.

Paul confirms Peter saw the Lord first before the other apostles, on the evening of the first day of His resurrection, and that above 500 saw Him during the 40 days after. He was also seen by James after the evening of the first day, either before His second appearance to them on the 8th day, or afterward before the sea of Galilee for the third time.

[Difflugia]

Is there a question?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #1]

Magdalen comes later in the dark before dawn, and finds the tomb empty. She tells Peter and the other disciple, and they come running to see the tomb empty. They enter to see and depart. (John 20)

Magdalen remains behind and sees two angels in the tomb, and then Jesus Himself alive outside the tomb. She is the first person on earth to see Him after His resurrection. While still dark, she returns again to tell the disciples of His resurrection, and they don't believe it. (John 20) (Mark 16)

Magdalen, the other Mary, Salome, and the other women from Galilee, including Joanna, arrive at the tomb in the morning light. One group arrives with their prepared spices and ointments, while Magdalen's group arrives with bought sweet spices. They find the tomb empty. (Mark 16) (Luke 24)

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
(Mark 16:1-3)

Why would Magdalen be taking spices to the tomb in the morning light with a group of other women and asking along with them, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?” when she had already been to the tomb before dawn and found it open and empty?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #1]

Magdalen comes later in the dark before dawn, and finds the tomb empty. She tells Peter and the other disciple, and they come running to see the tomb empty. They enter to see and depart. (John 20)

Magdalen remains behind and sees two angels in the tomb, and then Jesus Himself alive outside the tomb. She is the first person on earth to see Him after His resurrection. While still dark, she returns again to tell the disciples of His resurrection, and they don't believe it. (John 20) (Mark 16)

Magdalen, the other Mary, Salome, and the other women from Galilee, including Joanna, arrive at the tomb in the morning light. One group arrives with their prepared spices and ointments, while Magdalen's group arrives with bought sweet spices. They find the tomb empty. (Mark 16) (Luke 24)

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
(Mark 16:1-3)

Why would Magdalen be taking spices to the tomb in the morning light with a group of other women and asking along with them, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?” when she had already been to the tomb before dawn and found it open and empty?

Thank you very much for the intelligent objection. However, the answer continues to be in the specific details:
1. It's first confirmed that Magdalene did come in the dark alone, as John 20 says, before anyone else. She sees the tomb opened, and afterward so do Peter and John. And then she's the first on earth to see Jesus risen from the dead, as Mark 16 confirms.

2. At the time of the morning, not even the chosen apostles of the Lord believed her testimony of His resurrection during the night. Why would Magdalene think any different of the women? The fact is that the morning visit with spices was planned the day before, and arguing with the women, would not serve any purpose. Like Jesus' mother Mary in Luke 2, she could just as well keep such miraculous things about Him in her heart. And finally, some of the apostles later on, didn't even believe their own eyes while looking at the risen Lord for themselves. She may have begun to doubt her own eyes by morning light. Wisdom says in such cases to hold one's peace, until events unfold:

Pro 12:23
A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

3. The record says they asked each other. Where does it specifically say, that Magdalene asked another? It doesn't. Another may indeed have asked her, but she didn't have to answer, nor was an answer necessarily expected.

In conclusion, it's not unreasonable, that Magdalene did not make known these things to the other women, whom she planned to be at the tomb with in the morning. And she may have begun to doubt her own eyes, the same as some apostles later on. It's her earlier visit to the tomb while still dark and alone, that's so surprising.

It's a very good challenge, that I already had to consider myself...It's the kind of honest challenge that compels a reasonable answer. Thanks.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #4]

At the time of the morning, not even the chosen apostles of the Lord believed her testimony of His resurrection during the night. Why would Magdalene think any different of the women?

The assumption that Magdalene would not share the momentous news with the other women is illogical, especially since they're all headed to the very place where she witnessed everything. Logically, she would give them the news and add, "You'll see when we get there!"

And finally, some of the apostles later on, didn't even believe their own eyes while looking at the risen Lord for themselves.

We are not told the same about Magdalene. It is therefore obvious that it is not the reaction the authors are ascribing to her.

She may have begun to doubt her own eyes by morning light.

She tells Peter that the tomb has been opened and that the body is missing, so she obviously remembers making those discoveries. It besmirches her character to assume that she wouldn't tell the other women at least that much so they wouldn't bother packing useless spices all the way there.

The record says they asked each other. Where does it specifically say, that Magdalene asked another? It doesn't. Another may indeed have asked her, but she didn't have to answer, nor was an answer necessarily expected.

The record says they asked each other. Where does it specifically say that Magdalene didn't ask, but simply let the others puzzle away without the knowledge she held? It doesn't.

Again, it slights her to assume that she does not share what she knows.

In conclusion, it's not unreasonable, that Magdalene did not make known these things to the other women, whom she planned to be at the tomb with in the morning. And she may have begun to doubt her own eyes, the same as some apostles later on.

The authors who tell us of the apostles' disbelief and doubt do not ascribe the same internal monologues to Mary Magdalene. Attributed to the apostles, those reactions are part of the testimony; attributed to Magdalene, they are inventions. Having to resort to invention to make the narrative work shows that it doesn't work.

Yet even then their testimony did not agree.
(Mark 14:59)

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #4]

At the time of the morning, not even the chosen apostles of the Lord believed her testimony of His resurrection during the night. Why would Magdalene think any different of the women?

The assumption that Magdalene would not share the momentous news with the other women is illogical, especially since they're all headed to the very place where she witnessed everything. Logically, she would give them the news and add, "You'll see when we get there!"

My logic fits the record, that she brought the spices with her.

Your logic is an assumption to insist she should have. Your assumption does not make the record wrong.

And finally, some of the apostles later on, didn't even believe their own eyes while looking at the risen Lord for themselves.

We are not told the same about Magdalene.

At first, she did not recognize Jesus. He had to get her attention. Therefore, not believing her own eyes later after being given no credibility by the apostles, is credible.

She may have begun to doubt her own eyes by morning light.

It besmirches her character to assume that she wouldn't tell the other women at least that much so they wouldn't bother packing useless spices all the way there.

Doubting is not unbelief acted upon.

Playing character rescue, while besmirching the character of the record, is self-besmirching.

The record says they asked each other. Where does it specifically say that Magdalene didn't ask, but simply let the others puzzle away without the knowledge she held? It doesn't.

Where does is specifically say she did?

Once again, my logic fits what is not recorded, without besmirching the record. And of course you're logic assumes what is not recorded, in order to besmirch the record.

Having to resort to invention to make the narrative work shows that it doesn't work.

Having to resort to invention to make the narrative not work shows that it works.

You've done nothing but play devil's advocate in the arena of assumption, which does not prove the record wrong. When you have facts from the record itself, that contradict the record itself, then I'd be glad to look at it.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #6]

The assumption that Magdalene would not share the momentous news with the other women is illogical, especially since they're all headed to the very place where she witnessed everything. Logically, she would give them the news and add, "You'll see when we get there!"

My logic fits the record, that she brought the spices with her.

That indicates that she still intends to use them, and that indicates that she hasn't been to the tomb earlier to find the body missing.

At first, she did not recognize Jesus. He had to get her attention. Therefore, not believing her own eyes later after being given no credibility by the apostles, is credible.

John tells us that she didn't see Jesus at all the first time she went to the tomb. He then tells us that she returns to the tomb still believing him dead and doesn't recognize him at first, but that she does recognize him before she leaves the second time. John then explicitly tells us that she told the disciples of seeing Jesus and what he said to her (20:18). At that point she doesn't have to rely on the belief of the apostles because she's seen him herself, and that would make it pointless for her to carry spices to the tomb afterward.


The record says they asked each other. Where does it specifically say that Magdalene didn't ask, but simply let the others puzzle away without the knowledge she held? It doesn't.

Where does is specifically say she did?

It doesn't specifically say that any of them did. It says that they asked each other, indicating that they were all asking. If any of them weren't asking, for any reason whatsoever, that detail should have been included. Since it isn't, the logical conclusion is that the author did not intend to lead the reader to believe that any of the women were not asking.

Once again, my logic fits what is not recorded

Logic has to fit what is recorded.

And of course you're logic assumes what is not recorded

You're taking the position that the apostles' unbelief talked Mary Magdalene out of believing that Jesus had risen after she saw him risen, so you're the one assuming what's not recorded.


Having to resort to invention to make the narrative work shows that it doesn't work.

Having to resort to invention to make the narrative not work shows that it works.

Again, I have invented nothing. I've merely been pointing out that the accounts don't fit together as they're written.

You've done nothing but play devil's advocate in the arena of assumption, which does not prove the record wrong.

Again, I'm not the one relying on assumption. You proposed that MM saw the risen Jesus as John tells and then went back to the tomb with burial spices as Mark tells. Those two recorded events are inconsistent. When I suggested that, you leaned into speculation of MM being talked out of belief in her direct experience by the skeptical disciples----a speculation without any support in any of the gospel accounts, and without such support that speculation does not proceed logically from the record.

Unsupported assumptions are necessary only for proceeding on the presumption that multiple accounts of the same event must be reliable and consistent even if they're evidently not. I don't proceed on that presumption. I make assumption in that I assume only what the text suggests. If texts suggest that multiple accounts of the same event are inconsistent, I accept that.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #6]

The assumption that Magdalene would not share the momentous news with the other women is illogical, especially since they're all headed to the very place where she witnessed everything. Logically, she would give them the news and add, "You'll see when we get there!"

My logic fits the record, that she brought the spices with her.

That indicates that she still intends to use them, and that indicates that she hasn't been to the tomb earlier to find the body missing.

False. Record says she was.

Speculation where the record is silent, is false when it contradicts the record.

A contradiction is only if any other record proves, that she was not there at early at dark before morning.

At first, she did not recognize Jesus. He had to get her attention. Therefore, not believing her own eyes later after being given no credibility by the apostles, is credible.

John tells us that she didn't see Jesus at all the first time she went to the tomb. He then tells us that she returns to the tomb still believing him dead and doesn't recognize him at first, but that she does recognize him before she leaves the second time.

Correct. Which is confirmed by Mark, also stating she was the first to see Jesus early in the day, which is confirmed by John while before dawn.

Mar 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Where does is specifically say she did?

It doesn't specifically say that any of them did. It says that they asked each other, indicating that they were all asking. If any of them weren't asking, for any reason whatsoever, that detail should have been included.

False. Objective critics can ask why the record is written as is, and speculate. But that doesn't make the record false, especially not from any unnecessary demands of those only seeking fault.

Contradictions are between what's written, not what's not written.

And of course you're logic assumes what is not recorded

You're taking the position that the apostles' unbelief talked Mary Magdalene out of believing that Jesus had risen after she saw him risen,

A verifiable false statement, that can't be quoted from. Your reading of speculation about the record, is as false as your reading of the record.

Nothing is said of the unbelieving apostles talking Mary into or out of anything. Their unbelief alone could have persuaded her to hold her own counsel, until the events prove themselves.

Rather than accept your argument fails to prove anything, you now must misrepresent the opposing argument.

Having to resort to invention to make the narrative not work shows that it works.

Again, I have invented nothing. I've merely been pointing out that the accounts don't fit together as they're written.

False. You've not shown any two records contradicting each other, but only contradicting your fault-finding speculations.

By resorting to willful misrepresentations, you've now forgotten was a factual argument is.

Job 5:13
He taketh the crafty in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.


I'll look to see if someone can objectively find any factual error in the timeline given, rather than some faultfinder only misrepresenting the timeline through faulty speculation.

[William]

[Replying to RBD in post #1]

How are we to ascertain that this whole story wasn't a useful fiction created through a combined effort of Roman and Jewish intellectuals designed to influence the masses?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #8]

That indicates that she still intends to use them, and that indicates that she hasn't been to the tomb earlier to find the body missing.

False. Record says she was.

No, you say she was. You're the one who puts John's account before Mark's, but Mark's account still suggests that she hasn't been to the tomb.

Speculation where the record is silent, is false when it contradicts the record.

When speculation is necessary to make one record agree with another, the indication is that at least one of the records is wrong.

Contradictions are between what's written, not what's not written.

Then MM taking spices to the tomb when she hasn't yet been to the tomb does not contradict her not doubting a previous encounter with the risen Jesus, since it's not written that she'd had such an encounter and doubted it.

Nothing is said of the unbelieving apostles talking Mary into or out of anything. Their unbelief alone could have persuaded her to hold her own counsel, until the events prove themselves.

That's what I actually meant, but it makes no difference. You're saying that their lack of belief caused her to doubt her own direct experience, which would be equivalent to talking her out of it.

I'll look to see if someone can objectively find any factual error in the timeline given, rather than some faultfinder only misrepresenting the timeline through faulty speculation.

Again, any assuming I've done comes from what each text suggests. I haven't assigned any extratextual thoughts, words or motives to anyone in the narratives, and if their behavior is inconsistent without such amendments then so be it. I've gone strictly by what parties say and do in the texts.