If God is a sadist.............

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:11 am

Yeah, I've seen Biblical references to God being angry and vengeful. Usually when someone sets themselves against him or his people, or his people do wrong. But hey I'll admit I'm not the best Biblical scholar. I've read it, but I can't remember each reference on the spot.

So I'd like to know, is there any reference to God actually enjoying people suffering? After all, the God in the OT is often angry, heck even Jesus can be. Then again I don't always see anger as wrong, least of all when it comes from a judge.

MagusYanam · Post by **MagusYanam** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:22 pm

Well, there we may have to disagree. Anger is wrong coming from a judge; in fact it is perhaps the worst thing for a judge to be - judges are ideally impartial, cautious, understanding and rational. Anger is an emotion which impedes a judge's ability to be impartial, cautious, understanding or rational.

When Jesus became angry, it was never with the multitudes, never with the people who stumbled, never with the people who sinned or did wrong. When he became angry, it was with the self-righteous religious leaders and with those who exploited the sinners and the wrong-doers. He overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the temple, decrying their thievery, and he did it to prove that the temple was a place not only for those who could pay to get in, but for everyone.

(If Jesus were alive today, I'm guessing he'd likely be wrecking various TV preachers' studios when he wasn't speaking out against the war or decrying the tax cuts that keep the rich rich and make the poor poorer. But that's just my opinion based on what he was doing in the Gospel.)

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:09 pm

Well, there we may have to disagree. Anger is wrong coming from a judge; in fact it is perhaps the worst thing for a judge to be - judges are ideally impartial, cautious, understanding and rational. Anger is an emotion which impedes a judge's ability to be impartial, cautious, understanding or rational.

Not always. A person can be angry yet still be rational.

MagusYanam · Post by **MagusYanam** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:24 pm

scorpia wrote:Not always. A person can be angry yet still be rational.

All I have to say is, I wish I could do that.

When I get angry at someone, it's always a struggle to step outside myself and view the situation objectively. It's definitely a lot harder to be fair to someone who pisses me off. A judge under our legal system should ideally be impartial and without emotional investment in either side, the prosecution or the defence. Otherwise, a trial is just a raising and lowering of the hand.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:14 pm

So I'd like to know, is there any reference to God actually enjoying people suffering?

I'm not sure if you'll find any direct statements, but let's see what others come up with.

Psalm 137 is a revenge fantasy against Babylon. And includes:

Psalm 137(KJV):
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Or:

Psalm 137(NASB):
9 How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

While this verse doesn't specifically say that YHWH is happy with this, it does clearly offend our modern morality that violence against babies could be "blessed" or "happy"; and the implication is pretty strong.

In any case, people often accuse YHWH of being a psychopath rather than a sadist. Real serial killers often express horror and revulsion at their own acts. Many state that they didn't want to, and didn't enjoy, killing. Perhaps the only verse missing from the bible is "Stop me before I kill again."

DanZ

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:36 pm

While this verse doesn't specifically say that YHWH is happy with this

You think, perhaps, because it was the pslamist talking, not God. Seen that debate already.
Look at the verse before that. "O Daughter of babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you, for what you have done to us." I guess that was what the Babylons has done to the Pslamist and his people, and the writer wants revenge.

Try again.

In any case, people often accuse YHWH of being a psychopath rather than a sadist. Real serial killers often express horror and revulsion at their own acts. Many state that they didn't want to, and didn't enjoy, killing. Perhaps the only verse missing from the bible is "Stop me before I kill again."

As for the "missing verse", there are plenty of ones where God or someone says "Stop yourself before I have to punish you.", eg. Amos 5- 4 "Seek me and live; do not seek Bethel, do not go to Gilgal, do not journey to Beersheba. For Gilgal will surely go into exile and Bethel will be reduced to nothing. Seek the lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire"

Good grief he even had himself sarificed so that people would not have to be punished. What more do you want? How many times has he requested people to repent and obey him?

Not to mention one does not necessarily have to be a psycopath or a sadist to be a killer. A woman who's child has been threatened, for example, could be downright dangerous to the offender, and isn't a force a sane person would want to contend with. Or Saddam Hussein, for example, was killed recently. Yet I felt nothing except that he deserved it. What does that make me?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:34 pm

You think, perhaps, because it was the pslamist talking, not God.

Sure, fine, if you accept that the bible is not the canonical Word of God. Not many churches take that position, tho...

I guess that was what the Babylons has done to the Pslamist and his people, and the writer wants revenge.

Yes, and that's the context of most OT violence.

Try again.

Why? Are you left unsure as to whether YHWH in the OT approves of the violence in the OT?

Good grief he even had himself sarificed so that people would not have to be punished.

An episode of schizophrenia?

Not to mention one does not necessarily have to be a psycopath or a sadist to be a killer.

Sure, but what do you have to be to bless with happiness people who dash children on the rocks?

What does that make me?

Liable to hellfire, I guess.

DanZ

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:00 am

scorpia wrote:
While this verse doesn't specifically say that YHWH is happy with this
You think, perhaps, because it was the pslamist talking, not God. Seen that debate already.
Look at the verse before that. "O Daughter of babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you, for what you have done to us." I guess that was what the Babylons has done to the Pslamist and his people, and the writer wants revenge.

Try again.
In any case, people often accuse YHWH of being a psychopath rather than a sadist. Real serial killers often express horror and revulsion at their own acts. Many state that they didn't want to, and didn't enjoy, killing. Perhaps the only verse missing from the bible is "Stop me before I kill again."
As for the "missing verse", there are plenty of ones where God or someone says "Stop yourself before I have to punish you.", eg. Amos 5- 4 "Seek me and live; do not seek Bethel, do not go to Gilgal, do not journey to Beersheba. For Gilgal will surely go into exile and Bethel will be reduced to nothing. Seek the lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire"

Good grief he even had himself sarificed so that people would not have to be punished. What more do you want? How many times has he requested people to repent and obey him?

Not to mention one does not necessarily have to be a psycopath or a sadist to be a killer. A woman who's child has been threatened, for example, could be downright dangerous to the offender, and isn't a force a sane person would want to contend with. Or Saddam Hussein, for example, was killed recently. Yet I felt nothing except that he deserved it. What does that make me?

So, is your position that there is no record of God enjoying mankinds suffering because the Bible isn't a reliable source of God? So Psalms isn't inspired by God? What else in the Bible is incorrect?

A sadist is someone who expects everyone to obey them. So does your statment that God expects man to repent and obey him negate or confirm He is sadist?

scorpia · Post by **scorpia** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:01 am

Sure, fine, if you accept that the bible is not the canonical Word of God. Not many churches take that position, tho...

Odd. That particular reference, in any case, is one that the church and other Christians online has already said to have come from a pslamist. Not that it matters. Whether I believe that the Bible is God's word entirely or not is up to me, not the masses.

Yes, and that's the context of most OT violence.

Precisely. Revenge. Not sadism, but revenge. That's what I'm trying to point out. What I don't get is when people say that violence in the OT is not about revenge or punishment or whatnot, but some other factor. But like you say, that is what the OT violence is about.

Why? Are you left unsure as to whether YHWH in the OT approves of the violence in the OT?

Interesting taunt. Are you left unsure of whether I approve of violence? By the look of things you still want to try to knock around some alleged pedestals. Are you still unsure that someone would accept a whole person, let alone a whole God? Who's the one who's really on the pedestal? What if it is not God that get's knocked off? What if it's someone YOU have put on a pedestal?

Seriously though, I wish to know where the reasoning "God is sadistic" comes from. I can ask why someone thinks that when I see reasoning to the contrary, can't I?

Sure, but what do you have to be to bless with happiness people who dash children on the rocks?

Someone who has seen their own kids being killed obviously. Really, can you blame such a person considering that case?

Liable to hellfire, I guess.

Maybe.........

But that's how I feel.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:09 pm

That particular reference, in any case, is one that the church and other Christians online has already said to have come from a pslamist.

You mean, just like all the other psalms?

Whether I believe that the Bible is God's word entirely or not is up to me, not the masses.

Ah, a pick-and-choose christian. Good luck with the fundementalists...

Precisely. Revenge. Not sadism, but revenge. That's what I'm trying to point out. What I don't get is when people say that violence in the OT is not about revenge or punishment or whatnot, but some other factor. But like you say, that is what the OT violence is about.

OK, does that help you in thinking about god? That he is an out-of-control vengeful butcher?

Consider Hosea:

Hosea 13(NIV):
16 "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

The quote is YHWH saying what he is going to do to them. Read Hosea 13. The "crime" is worshipping Baal. Don't forget that in the social context the little ones and women would have had no say at all in the religion followed by the society.

Seriously though, I wish to know where the reasoning "God is sadistic" comes from. I can ask why someone thinks that when I see reasoning to the contrary, can't I?

Well, obviously it comes from the view that god is "in control". If he is in control, and there is mass violence, we must conclude that he enjoys the spectacle. For example, if worshipping Baal is such an offense to him, he could have simply taken it out of their hearts (compare the the "hardening" of Pharoah's heart in exodus). Or he could have used non-violent means to persuade. Or anything else, really, other than butchery.

Are you left unsure of whether I approve of violence?

Yes, I am unsure. I think that you support violence, even mass violence, as long as it can be claimed to be god's will. It's a view that has plagued humanity for millenia.

Sure, but what do you have to be to bless with happiness people who dash children on the rocks?

Someone who has seen their own kids being killed obviously. Really, can you blame such a person considering that case?

You're d*mn right I can blame them. Butchery and counter-butchery is not a solution to any issue. Not in terms of criminal murder, not in terms of warfare. And the butchery of small children? Only a theist could be motivated to do that.

DanZ