Does consciousness exist?

[bernee51]

"Does consciousness exist?"

William James asked in 1904, in an essay of the same name.

He answered that consciousness does not exist. He based this on the thought that if one looks at consciousness carefully it will be seen that it’s not a thing, not an object, not an entity. Consciousness is simply one with whatever is immediately arising. I look at a mountain. Biologically, that is, as part of the biosphere, I see the shape, form etc. With consciousness, ‘seeing ‘ with the mind, actng in the noosphere, I do not so much see the mountain as experience it. It is not an object. The mountain and I are one in the immediacy of the experience.

So in this sense, consciousness does not exist.

Objective studies of consciousness, however, hold that it develops (evolves?) as we go through life stages. Starting out at the sensoriphysical, moving through impulse and image, symbols and concepts and so on. This gives the idea that, as it can be studied, consciousness is an objective entity.

So, does consciousness exist?

[Corvus]

First I have to ask you to define consciousness. I am not sure this isn't a self-defeating question.

actng in the noosphere

Secondly I have to ask what this means.

Edit: In actual fact, I don't understand any of it. Perhaps you could try to refine your explanation? I don't understand how if something is not tangible, it does not exist. I suppose that a concept only exists in one's mind, unless we take a Platonic metaphysical view of concepts, but still it's the consciousness that gives rise to the concept, and simply being aware of a concept is proof of consciousness..

I have to admit I'm not very good at philosophical theories. They often appears to make very simple things very complicated.

[mrmufin]

[William James] answered that consciousness does not exist. He based this on the thought that if one looks at consciousness carefully it will be seen that it’s not a thing, not an object, not an entity. Consciousness is simply one with whatever is immediately arising.

James' definiton of consciousness is a bit fuzzy and mystical, IMO... While his description of consciousness may be useful in poetry, it leaves a bit too much room for misinterpretation. Consciousness, I would say, exists as the state of some demonstrable awareness, or the ability to respond to stimuli. The "neither object or entity" aspect mentioned is accurate, but some things exist purely as concept or description. Consciousness doesn't exist in and of itself, but as a property, a descriptor; something that we assign to certain of objects that display awareness.

So, does consciousness exist?

I'd say so; in the same sense that sobriety, redness, or triangular exist: as a property of some objects. Our ability to evaluate consciousness exists only in the objects that we classify as conscious. We are unable to take, say, 50 mg of consciousness, heat it to 300 degrees C and see what happens any more than we could take 3 meters of drunkeness and deep freeze it. So do properties of objects exist? Yes, if were going to speak descriptively about objects and entities. But properties of objects are wholly dependent upon the objects...

So in order to study consciousness, some general agreement is needed to find objects which can be classified as conscious. Once that part is done, it is entirely plausible that that property may change over time, and that the change can be documented; thereby leaving us with some understanding of consciousness. In and of itself, consciousness is a fleeting concept.

Regards,
mrmufin

[bernee51]

actng in the noosphere

Secondly I have to ask what this means.

Ah the noosphere.

We as humans could be held to inhabit a number of realms. Lets start at the
beginning - the geosphere.

The nuts and bolts of our bodies, the fundamental elements of which we are
made, are part of the geosphere. Before what we know as life came about
on this planet (by whatever means you happen to subscribe to), all that
existed was geosphere. This obviously still exiists otherwise we wouldn't
be here talking about it.

Life arose - and along with it the biosphere. Those parts of us that
'function' to enable us as living creatures are part of the biosphere as
are all things living. When we, as a living being have an interruption to
the biosphere (death) we cease to be and our bodies revert to the
geosphere. In fact the only part of us that we can be certain to survive
death is that part of us which is geosphere. Plant an apple tree upon my
grave and pretty soon you will be eating elements that were once part of
me.

Part of that biosphere is the brain. My brain can be physically examined.
It can be scanned, EEG's taken, etc. In order to know my mind however you
must talk with me. The realm of the mind is the noosphere.

Each level does not replace the one below it but rather it includes and
transcends. In doing so it leads to a greater depth (complexity). OTOH,
higher levels are dependent on the lower. An interruption to my bioshere
has dire consequences for my consciousness.

In James' discussion of consciousness he was perceiving it purely from a
biospherical POV. In that sense, at the level of biology, consciousness
could be said not to exist. Examained from the noosphere, however, it
certainly does.

[nikolayevich]

Consciousness, as with conscience (or con science) = with knowledge of... existence and morality respectively.

In order to know that we lack consciousness we would need to be 'with knowledge,' or, 'conscious' of that absence- paradoxically.

Perhaps Descartes knew what he was talking about...

[Greatest I Am]

If you do not have conciousnes, what retained the info that you needed to pose the question.

[Greatest I Am]

A good test to proove concciousness.
Place thumb to eye.
Push hard.
If you feel pain, you are there and concious.
If you do not feel pain then you are not there.
If you are not there then you do not exis and unfortunately may never come back

Regards

DL

[QED]

A good test to proove concciousness.
Place thumb to eye.
Push hard.
If you feel pain, you are there and concious.

OK so far, although if I have Iritis the cause of my pain might not my thumb.

If you do not feel pain then you are not there.

What if I have had a local anaesthetic?

If you are not there then you do not exis and unfortunately may never come back

Maybe I had just gone out to buy a newspaper

[Bino Julian Pedro Web]

exist, of course!!!

[Furrowed Brow]

A good test to proove concciousness.
Place thumb to eye.
Push hard.
If you feel pain, you are there and concious.

OK so far, although if I have Iritis the cause of my pain might not my thumb.

If you do not feel pain then you are not there.

What if I have had a local anaesthetic?

If you are not there then you do not exis and unfortunately may never come back

Maybe I had just gone out to buy a newspaper

If it is the Daily Sport. Then Sadly you are not there.