Former Christians

[Goose]

From another thread in the apologetics forum titled Are you a Christian? I had some questions but thought they might be off topic for that thread so I've posted them here as I wans't sure where to put them.

1. Did you know God? I don't mean know about Him or the Bible. I mean did you know Him?

2. Were there any evidences of your faith?

3. Did you ever experience the presence of the Holy Spirit?

4. Did you believe that Christ rose from the dead to vindicate His claims?

5. Did you ever humble yourself before Him?

[OnceConvinced]

1. Did you know God? I don't mean know about Him or the Bible. I mean did you know Him?

I believed I knew him. I believed I had a relationship with him. I talked to him regularly throughout the day and things seemed so much clearer as I talked to him. It became a habit, talking to him and praying to him. I thought I knew his voice and when he was guiding me and when he wasn't.

2. Were there any evidences of your faith?

I was always involved in ministries and gave of my time. I was always active in the church and happily admitted to workmates and friends that I was a Christian. I was always willing to witness if people wanted to hear. I never pushed it on anyone. I even refused to get drunk and take drugs as an example to work colleagues and friends.

But most of my faith was not shown externally. It was internal. Always believing the God was working in my life and that he was real. Believing without a doubt that he was guiding me down the right path and into the areas he wanted me to be.

3. Did you ever experience the presence of the Holy Spirit?
Regularly. But mainly in church, during the worship or after the sermon. I later realised that what I was experiencing wasn't really the Holy Spirit at all, simply the effect of the music and the words of the speaker that have the ability to stir us.

Regardless of that, I believed the HS was always in me, guiding me and empowering me.

4. Did you believe that Christ rose from the dead to vindicate His claims?
Absolutely. I believed the bible was the infallible word of God.

5. Did you ever humble yourself before Him?
Many times. I have been up the front of the church to be prayed for many times, often for areas I felt I was weak. I have prayed to God many times, crying out to him for various reasons, asking for forgiveness when I did wrong, asking for wisdom, asking for revelation, all sorts.

I was your average, genuine, active, Christian. If I was never a true Christian, then there are many here who claim to be true Christians who will find they aren't.

1 Corinthians 10:12: Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

[upallnite]

1. Did you know God? I don't mean know about Him or the Bible. I mean did you know Him?

I thought I knew what he wanted. I thought I knew what he had done. I thought I knew what he was doing in my life and the lives of others. I thought wrong.

2. Were there any evidences of your faith?

I was in a youth group. I went to church and actually listened. I even dressed up as a Concordance for one Samhain. I prayed. Anything you are looking for here?

3. Did you ever experience the presence of the Holy Spirit?

I felt comforted when I prayed. I felt wonderful when in church. I felt powerful when I told others about my faith. I later found out that it was only me.

4. Did you believe that Christ rose from the dead to vindicate His claims?

No, I did not belive Jesus needed to vindicate His claims. I believed Jesus rose from the dead because he was God. With a child-like faith you can belive childish things.

[Goose]

Hi Onceconvinced,

Thanks for responding. I'll add, that I think you are sincere. I think you were a genuine Christian if what you say below is true. These questions weren't designed to "expose" you or anyone as a fraud. I have two people in my life that are former-Christians and I'm trying to understand where their head is at. I hope you don't mind me asking a few more questions. I'm also trying to see if there are common trends for one that loses their faith. Lay back on my leather couch and relax.

1. Did you know God? I don't mean know about Him or the Bible. I mean did you know Him?

I believed I knew him. I believed I had a relationship with him. I talked to him regularly throughout the day and things seemed so much clearer as I talked to him. It became a habit, talking to him and praying to him. I thought I knew his voice and when he was guiding me and when he wasn't.

You're not the first to have difficulty with this question. The former-christians that have answered this question usually feel they have to qualify their answer. For some reason they can't seem to answer with a simple yes or no. The question is not did you believe you knew God or did you think you knew God, but did you know God. There is a subtle but important difference. However, I digress. Why did you stop believing if things seemed so much clearer as you say? Usually there's an external reason or series of reasons when such a drastic change takes place. Was there one for you and if so what was it?

2. Were there any evidences of your faith?

I was always involved in ministries and gave of my time. I was always active in the church and happily admitted to workmates and friends that I was a Christian. I was always willing to witness if people wanted to hear. I never pushed it on anyone. I even refused to get drunk and take drugs as an example to work colleagues and friends.
But most of my faith was not shown externally. It was internal. Always believing the God was working in my life and that he was real. Believing without a doubt that he was guiding me down the right path and into the areas he wanted me to be.

I don't know how someone can believe with out a doubt of any kind especially in the beginning of their walk. But it sounds like you were headed in the right direction. What stopped you?

3. Did you ever experience the presence of the Holy Spirit?

Regularly. But mainly in church, during the worship or after the sermon. I later realised that what I was experiencing wasn't really the Holy Spirit at all, simply the effect of the music and the words of the speaker that have the ability to stir us.

I'm not sure I understand. You said you experienced the Holy Spirit regularly, but then say it was just the stirring of music and the speaker. Which one was it?

There's a distinction I also need to make here. There is baptism in the Holy Spirit and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a very unique and quite unmistakeable event. It usually comes first and generally only once. If you needed music, motivational sermons, and primarily had to be in church to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit I would agree with you that probably wasn't the Holy Spirit you were feeling. The Holy Spirit doesn't need gimmicks.

Regardless of that, I believed the HS was always in me, guiding me and empowering me.

What changed your mind?

4. Did you believe that Christ rose from the dead to vindicate His claims?

Absolutely. I believed the bible was the infallible word of God.

I'm not sure how the Resurrection of Christ and infallibility must be connected. What changed your mind about the resurrection? Was your real faith based in the infallibility of the Bible, perhaps? Did you believe the bible was infallible before you became a Christian or was that conclusion reached after?

5. Did you ever humble yourself before Him?

Many times. I have been up the front of the church to be prayed for many times, often for areas I felt I was weak. I have prayed to God many times, crying out to him for various reasons, asking for forgiveness when I did wrong, asking for wisdom, asking for revelation, all sorts.

Were these moments primarily restricted to alter calls, Sunday mornings, and Church meetings? More importantly, why did you decide to stop doing this?

I was your average, genuine, active, Christian. If I was never a true Christian, then there are many here who claim to be true Christians who will find they aren't.

There's no need to get defensive. This thread wasn't about establishing who is or who is not a "true Christian." I believe you are/were sincere.

Would it be fair to summarize your responses as thus:
1. No, because I now believe God doesn't exist.
2. Yes, many.
3. No, because I now believe the Holy Spirit does not exist.
4. Yes, until what appeared to be errors in the Bible were pointed out.
5. No, see number 1.

If I'm way off let me know.

Can I ask a couple more questions?

If you believed that you knew God, what made you give up that belief?

Did God/Christianity change or did you change?

Is it possible that you did have some real experiences with God and were on the right track but you were deceived out of your faith?

Assuming God existed and was testing your faith, would you say you passed or failed?

Were there any catalysts that you can recall leading up to your loss of faith?

Do you now feel it is your mission (or at least very important) to spread the message that you think Christianity is a lie?

Do you regret making a decision to become a Christian and follow God?


I'm truly sorry you fell away from the faith. Perhaps one day you'll try again. I can promise God will be waiting with open arms.

[McCulloch]

The question is not did you believe you knew God or did you think you knew God, but did you know God. There is a subtle but important difference.

Do you know God? How is that different from believing that you know God?

[Goose]

The question is not did you believe you knew God or did you think you knew God, but did you know God. There is a subtle but important difference.

We've been over this before.

Do you know God?

Yes to a degree. I also know my wife. I don't know everything about my wife. I don't know God in the same way or sense as I know my wife, but I can say I know God. I don't just believe I know my wife or think I know her. I know her.

How is that different from believing that you know God?

To believe you know is less certain.

Do you know God, did you know Him? Can you answer yes or no?

[Goat]

The question is not did you believe you knew God or did you think you knew God, but did you know God. There is a subtle but important difference.

We've been over this before.

Do you know God?

Yes to a degree. I also know my wife. I don't know everything about my wife. I don't know God in the same way or sense as I know my wife, but I can say I know God. I don't just believe I know my wife or think I know her. I know her.

How is that different from believing that you know God?

To believe you know is less certain.

Do you know God, did you know Him? Can you answer yes or no?

It sounds like a semantic issue. At the time, they might have replied 'Yes, I know him'. Looking back, since they don't accept that their experiences were 'the holy spirit', their perception on what they felt and believed are different.

[McCulloch]

We've been over this before.

Right. I still don't quite understand. Maybe I'm a little slow.

Do you know God?

Yes to a degree. I also know my wife. I don't know everything about my wife. I don't know God in the same way or sense as I know my wife, but I can say I know God. I don't just believe I know my wife or think I know her. I know her.

How is that different from believing that you know God?

To believe you know is less certain.

I think that I'm getting it. The difference is the degree of certainty that you have. You know your wife. You are certain that you know your wife. You can demonstrate your wife's existence to other people in various ways: documents, descriptions from memory, photos, video and voice recordings, testimony from people who also have known her and ultimately an animated physical body that answers to her name and claims that she is your wife.

What is your alleged certainty in the existence of God based on? Documents. No photos, video or voice recordings. Personal memories? Testimonies? No physical presence.

Do you know God, did you know Him? Can you answer yes or no?

If you insist on a yes or no answer, then no, how could I have known someone who does not exist? But then again, I don't think that you know God either.

There are many different religions which have ecstatic epiphanies much like the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The followers of those religions are as convinced by such experiences as you seem to be about yours.

[Goose]

We've been over this before.

Right. I still don't quite understand. Maybe I'm a little slow.

You're being modest. You're very bright. Perhaps the problem is that your world view doesn't allow you to think outside the box of naturalism.

I think that I'm getting it. The difference is the degree of certainty that you have. You know your wife. You are certain that you know your wife. You can demonstrate your wife's existence to other people in various ways: documents, descriptions from memory, photos, video and voice recordings, testimony from people who also have known her and ultimately an animated physical body that answers to her name and claims that she is your wife.

These are evidences of a human that physically exists. You think because we attach human characteristics to God to help us understand Him and refer to Him as Him, that He must present physical qualities to be known. Knowing is not just restricted to physically knowing something exists or the physical qualities of that thing. Your having a problem understanding the analogy because you're understanding of what knowing means is limited to what we can know through naturalism. Do you know the character of your wife?

Do you know love? Have you known love? How do know love?

Do you know God, did you know Him? Can you answer yes or no?

If you insist on a yes or no answer, then no, how could I have known someone who does not exist?

I'll let you figure that one out.

There are many different religions which have ecstatic epiphanies much like the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The followers of those religions are as convinced by such experiences as you seem to be about yours.

And I don't necessarily doubt all of them. What I would doubt is whether it was the Holy Spirit.

[McCulloch]

We've been over this before.

Right. I still don't quite understand. Maybe I'm a little slow.

You're being modest. You're very bright.

Thank you. My older sister is really bright.

Perhaps the problem is that your world view doesn't allow you to think outside the box of naturalism.

I can think outside of the box of naturalism. Plenty of Sci-fi and fantasy are exercises in that. I used to believe in the Great Spirit of Christianity and the resurrected ascended Lord who listens to humans' prayers. I can certainly think outside of the box. I just have no evidence to justify believing any of it.

The difference is the degree of certainty that you have. You know your wife. You are certain that you know your wife. You can demonstrate your wife's existence to other people in various ways: documents, descriptions from memory, photos, video and voice recordings, testimony from people who also have known her and ultimately an animated physical body that answers to her name and claims that she is your wife.

These are evidences of a human that physically exists. You think because we attach human characteristics to God to help us understand Him and refer to Him as Him, that He must present physical qualities to be known. Knowing is not just restricted to physically knowing something exists or the physical qualities of that thing. Your having a problem understanding the analogy because you're understanding of what knowing means is limited to what we can know through naturalism. Do you know the character of your wife?

Yes, and I know the character of Severus Snape too. Is that how you know God?

Do you know love? Have you known love? How do know love?

Love, ah yes, love. It is like music. Do you know music? How do we distinguish between music and noise? I digress. Love like justice and music are human constructs. Quite useful. But somewhat difficult to define and not to be meaningfully extended beyond human society.

There are many different religions which have ecstatic epiphanies much like the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The followers of those religions are as convinced by such experiences as you seem to be about yours.

And I don't necessarily doubt all of them. What I would doubt is whether it was the Holy Spirit.

To paraphrase someone else, if you examine all the reasons why you doubt that it was the Holy Spirit, then you should be able to understand why I doubt the Holy Spirit itself (himself?).