Escape and Recovery from Warren Jeff’s FLDS Polygamous Cult

[Zzyzx]

.
I am honored to be married to a remarkably self-made woman. She was raised in perhaps the most indoctrinating and limiting of environments of modern America – the Fundamentalist Later Day Saints; the polygamous offshoot from Mormonism. She escaped as a teenager and spent twenty years deprogramming herself and learning to live successfully in the real world.

The former “Prophet” of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS), Warren Jeffs, is her uncle. He is currently serving “five years to life” in prison after being convicted for his role in a forced marriage and rape. My wife, fearing a fate like that of Elissa Wall (the girl that Jeffs forced to marry at 14 and who was subsequently raped by her husband/first cousin), escaped from the cult as a teenager and later helped her mother to escape and to literally kidnap her younger siblings.

FLDS members practice Polygyny today (multiple wives) and preach that a man can “gain the celestial kingdom” only by having a minimum of three wives – and that women can do so only by being “sealed” (church married) to a man who is going. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f39ac.html.

The FLDS broke away from mainstream Mormonism (LDS) after the main Mormon church disavowed polygamy (after a convenient “revelation from god”) just in time to meet a condition for gaining statehood for Utah. FLDS members were excommunicated by the LDS.

Polygamy (multiple mates) / Polygyny (multiple wives specifically) is only a part of cult beliefs and practices. The church rules in all matters and owns most property. Men are “given” wives by church elders in accordance to their standing with the church. Powerful older men often have scores of wives. My wife’s grandfather (Warren’s father Rulon Jeffs) had something like 75 wives and untold numbers of children when he died as an old man – some of his wives were quite young).

Women are property of their fathers until marriage, then property of their husbands thereafter (but ultimately property of church elders). Young girls raised in the cult are indoctrinated to be totally subservient to males and to do exactly as they are told. Their education is preferably limited to church schools teaching religious dogma and making no effort toward true education. Women must be covered from neck to ankles and wrists with “proper” blouses and skirts (even when swimming). They have absolutely no choice in who they marry. Girls / women are “assigned” to a husband (who can be totally repulsive to them). Courtship is not involved. The two may have never met and they may be totally different in disposition and age. No matter. The church rules.

This is NOT a made up condemnation of the FLDS even though it sounds ridiculous that any such thing could happen in the United States in modern times. Any Internet search will yield abundant information and verification. For a quick overview see http://www.religioustolerance.org/flds.htm

My wife knows the difficulty of overcoming cult teachings through deprogramming, and she knows what is required to learn about the real world after being sequestered throughout childhood and taught only church dogma. It took this wonderful, highly intelligent woman twenty years to “become a whole person” and to lear to successfully function within the real world.

She has done an outstanding job of learning to be a strong, confident, well informed woman. Most escapees that we know have not done the hard work necessary and therefore are not strong or independent people. They, males and females alike, tend to be meek, indecisive, confused and beset with low self-image. They typically lack social skills and therefore struggle with personal interactions and with personal relationships. Their decision making ability is usually very poorly developed, so they allow others to make their decisions (often disastrously) – or they make a series of terrible choices on their own without knowing how to make informed decisions.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, prostitution and other forms of self-destructive and escapist behavior are very common among ex-cult members that we have known. Even suicide is not unknown. We do not choose to associate with the “walking wounded” that have not recovered from cultism (including family).

It is all but impossible for those without inside information to understand how thoroughly cult indoctrination limits individual thinking to church dogma and how little the cult people know about the outside world. Many live in the LDS communities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona (or similar communities in several states and Canada) and rarely or never venture into the real world.

Those raised in the cult have never known anything except total domination by church elders. They are discouraged from associating with people from “out in the world” as they refer to general society, so they do not learn about individual freedom, legal protections, sources of assistance for those who wish to leave the cult, etc. They attend church schools and are typically forbidden to socialize with “gentiles”.

Of those who do leave the cult, very few do the hard work necessary to overcome their indoctrination and to learn how to function in general society. An outsider cannot comprehend the totality of church domination and the lack of socialization that is inflicted upon members. All decisions are made by the church. Marriages are “arranged” by church elders – courtship is not involved – you marry who you are told to marry – possibly someone you dislike intensely. Men make all decisions for women and children – in accordance with church doctrine.

A man is “given” wives in some relation to his devotion to church elders and to his usefulness to the church. He is also “given” a house – but not the deed to the house. If the man falls out of favor with church elders, his wives and children are “taken from him”, and he is ordered to vacate the house. A high proportion of young men are driven from the cult – in order that “faithful” men can have a minimum of three wives (required to attain the “celestial kingdom” according to church doctrine).
http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamenta ... Day_Saints

According to doctrine, a woman can attain the “celestial kingdom” only by being “sealed to” (church married) to a man who is going there. Men reign supreme. Women are nothing but baby machines and property of males – first their father, then their husband – for life – no exceptions. Men are similarly submissive to church elders. And, Warren Jeffs was the ultimate authority.

Utah and Arizona authorities have overlooked the crimes committed against women and children in the polygamous communities (somewhere around 10,000 people belong to the cult) for fear of bad publicity (as has occurred previously). In the last few years, however, enough attention has been drawn to the situation to make it unavoidable.

Warren Jeffs has been convicted and sentenced to five years to life in prison. The husband/cousin involved in the underage marriage faces rape charges. Perhaps this will be enough to break up church domination of the cult members (though many won’t know what to do or how to live).

Internet information is readily available about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
www.polygamy.org/about.shtml
www.exmormon.org
www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102395

This is intended as a brief overview and sample of a very involved story. I will add information periodically as appropriate, answer questions or engage in discussion.

If anyone has questions about life inside (and after) the cult, please feel free to ask in this thread or in a PM. My wife and I will give as good an answer as we can. However, we do not have information about recent inside developments, particularly those during the upheaval after Warren Jeffs was imprisoned.



What distinguishes a religious cult from a religious sect or denomination?

Is there any basic difference between cult indoctrination and “religious teaching (or training)”?

[Zzyzx]

.
Cdcdcd,

Thank you for a post that exhibits deep understanding of complex matters.

When I first saw the descriptive heading for this post, I assumed it was "nothing more" than links to or quotations from other sources, and nearly dismissed it without looking. How wrong I was!

I have nothing but admiration for your wife, and compassion for the 20 lost years of her life, and her suffering.

If you knew her in person it would be apparent that “celebration” applies better than any other term. Although she lost years due to the cult upbringing, she has developed into a very unique person that might not have existed if she had been raised in a more nurturing and supportive environment. If she had not had to fight so hard to overcome the negative effects, there might not have been an opportunity to “temper her metal”.

Isn’t it often true in life that those who have experienced and overcome adversity are the people we most admire and respect – and that those people who are often the ones who understand and who respond appropriately to difficult situations?

It might be expected that your posts would exhibit bitterness and prejudice towards organised religion of all types.

I rejected organized religion (Catholicism) sixty years ago (long before my wife was born). Her experience has confirmed my earlier conclusions regarding the negative effects of religion.

More significant in producing my opposition to organized religion has been a tendency of Theists to exhibit “holier than thou” attitudes and to attempt to assume a position of superiority. The “raving fundamentalists” who condemn to hell anyone who does not believe as they dictate have been instrumental in encouraging me to voice strong opposition.

Unfortunately, fanatics are often “out front” in promoting and defending “the cause” while more moderate and sensible people are in the background and are seldom heard.

While your views are firmly atheistic, I see no bitterness or prejudice, and for that, you too deserve admiration.

Actually, my views are more firmly Non-Theistic than Atheistic. My position is, “No evidence has been presented that would indicate to me that any supernatural beings exist. Therefore, I do NOT accept existence of such beings and do not support worshiping or otherwise becoming emotionally involved with beings that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination.”

I differ a bit from Atheism in that it connotes and denotes an actual rejection of the existence of gods. I am open to the idea IF evidence is provided (and “evidence” is NOT hearsay, ancient writings or conjectures).

I oppose promotion of religions to others using claims that cannot be verified and using coercion in the form of promises and threats regarding an “afterlife” and/or using guilt and fear.

Religious cults are an extreme case of "religion gone wrong", and in this case religion was deliberated mis-used as a method to empower men, especially with respect to their sexual desires.

There is a great deal of misuse of religion that relates to acquisition of power, influence, wealth and other benefits. Sexual benefits are often included, as I will be mentioning in subsequent posts.

However, the WORST cases of “religion gone wrong” are, in my opinion not the cults (as bad as they are) but are instead, 1) Theocracy and 2) Religious conquest and war. Both have (and do) wreak havoc on societies and civilizations.

I wish you both all the best in your lives together. I also consider you posts to be articulate and well reasoned.

Thank you on both counts.

Religion is not necessarily bad, but blind adherance to religion most certainly is bad.

I agree that religion “is not necessarily bad” (or as I might say, need not be more negative than positive -- perhaps?). However, I see more negative than positive overall.

I am sure there are many wonderful, thinking Christians on this list, and I urge them to become involved in discussions.

I agree 100%. There ARE wonderful, thinking Christian (and Theist) members of this forum. My wife and I have many Christian friends who are fine people with whom we get along fine – as long as they respect our conclusions and do not attempt to take a superior position or attempt to use "god talk" with us (just as we do not use "anti-god talk" with them).

I also agree with your encouragement for such members to become involved in discussions. We NEED more reasoned Theistic contributions.

Perhaps we could have a “Flag of Truce” sub-forum where negativism is discouraged and where Theists and Non-theists can exchange ideas in a very non-confrontational format. People might feel comfortable expressing ideas in such an environment that they would be “jumped on” in some of the debate forums.

Reasoned faith is to be encouraged, blind faith is just another name for ignorance. We ought all to be on the same side, that is, on the side of humanity.

I agree.

[justifyothers]

.
I am honored to be married to a remarkably self-made woman. She was raised in perhaps the most indoctrinating and limiting of environments of modern America – the Fundamentalist Later Day Saints; the polygamous offshoot from Mormonism. She escaped as a teenager and spent twenty years deprogramming herself and learning to live successfully in the real world.

The former “Prophet” of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS), Warren Jeffs, is her uncle. He is currently serving “five years to life” in prison after being convicted for his role in a forced marriage and rape. My wife, fearing a fate like that of Elissa Wall (the girl that Jeffs forced to marry at 14 and who was subsequently raped by her husband/first cousin), escaped from the cult as a teenager and later helped her mother to escape and to literally kidnap her younger siblings.

FLDS members practice Polygyny today (multiple wives) and preach that a man can “gain the celestial kingdom” only by having a minimum of three wives – and that women can do so only by being “sealed” (church married) to a man who is going. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f39ac.html.

The FLDS broke away from mainstream Mormonism (LDS) after the main Mormon church disavowed polygamy (after a convenient “revelation from god”) just in time to meet a condition for gaining statehood for Utah. FLDS members were excommunicated by the LDS.

Polygamy (multiple mates) / Polygyny (multiple wives specifically) is only a part of cult beliefs and practices. The church rules in all matters and owns most property. Men are “given” wives by church elders in accordance to their standing with the church. Powerful older men often have scores of wives. My wife’s grandfather (Warren’s father Rulon Jeffs) had something like 75 wives and untold numbers of children when he died as an old man – some of his wives were quite young).

Women are property of their fathers until marriage, then property of their husbands thereafter (but ultimately property of church elders). Young girls raised in the cult are indoctrinated to be totally subservient to males and to do exactly as they are told. Their education is preferably limited to church schools teaching religious dogma and making no effort toward true education. Women must be covered from neck to ankles and wrists with “proper” blouses and skirts (even when swimming). They have absolutely no choice in who they marry. Girls / women are “assigned” to a husband (who can be totally repulsive to them). Courtship is not involved. The two may have never met and they may be totally different in disposition and age. No matter. The church rules.

This is NOT a made up condemnation of the FLDS even though it sounds ridiculous that any such thing could happen in the United States in modern times. Any Internet search will yield abundant information and verification. For a quick overview see http://www.religioustolerance.org/flds.htm

My wife knows the difficulty of overcoming cult teachings through deprogramming, and she knows what is required to learn about the real world after being sequestered throughout childhood and taught only church dogma. It took this wonderful, highly intelligent woman twenty years to “become a whole person” and to lear to successfully function within the real world.

She has done an outstanding job of learning to be a strong, confident, well informed woman. Most escapees that we know have not done the hard work necessary and therefore are not strong or independent people. They, males and females alike, tend to be meek, indecisive, confused and beset with low self-image. They typically lack social skills and therefore struggle with personal interactions and with personal relationships. Their decision making ability is usually very poorly developed, so they allow others to make their decisions (often disastrously) – or they make a series of terrible choices on their own without knowing how to make informed decisions.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, prostitution and other forms of self-destructive and escapist behavior are very common among ex-cult members that we have known. Even suicide is not unknown. We do not choose to associate with the “walking wounded” that have not recovered from cultism (including family).

It is all but impossible for those without inside information to understand how thoroughly cult indoctrination limits individual thinking to church dogma and how little the cult people know about the outside world. Many live in the LDS communities of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona (or similar communities in several states and Canada) and rarely or never venture into the real world.

Those raised in the cult have never known anything except total domination by church elders. They are discouraged from associating with people from “out in the world” as they refer to general society, so they do not learn about individual freedom, legal protections, sources of assistance for those who wish to leave the cult, etc. They attend church schools and are typically forbidden to socialize with “gentiles”.

Of those who do leave the cult, very few do the hard work necessary to overcome their indoctrination and to learn how to function in general society. An outsider cannot comprehend the totality of church domination and the lack of socialization that is inflicted upon members. All decisions are made by the church. Marriages are “arranged” by church elders – courtship is not involved – you marry who you are told to marry – possibly someone you dislike intensely. Men make all decisions for women and children – in accordance with church doctrine.

A man is “given” wives in some relation to his devotion to church elders and to his usefulness to the church. He is also “given” a house – but not the deed to the house. If the man falls out of favor with church elders, his wives and children are “taken from him”, and he is ordered to vacate the house. A high proportion of young men are driven from the cult – in order that “faithful” men can have a minimum of three wives (required to attain the “celestial kingdom” according to church doctrine).
http://www.childbrides.org/boys.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamenta ... Day_Saints

According to doctrine, a woman can attain the “celestial kingdom” only by being “sealed to” (church married) to a man who is going there. Men reign supreme. Women are nothing but baby machines and property of males – first their father, then their husband – for life – no exceptions. Men are similarly submissive to church elders. And, Warren Jeffs was the ultimate authority.

Utah and Arizona authorities have overlooked the crimes committed against women and children in the polygamous communities (somewhere around 10,000 people belong to the cult) for fear of bad publicity (as has occurred previously). In the last few years, however, enough attention has been drawn to the situation to make it unavoidable.

Warren Jeffs has been convicted and sentenced to five years to life in prison. The husband/cousin involved in the underage marriage faces rape charges. Perhaps this will be enough to break up church domination of the cult members (though many won’t know what to do or how to live).

Internet information is readily available about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
www.polygamy.org/about.shtml
www.exmormon.org
www.rickross.com/groups/polygamy.html
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19102395

This is intended as a brief overview and sample of a very involved story. I will add information periodically as appropriate, answer questions or engage in discussion.

If anyone has questions about life inside (and after) the cult, please feel free to ask in this thread or in a PM. My wife and I will give as good an answer as we can. However, we do not have information about recent inside developments, particularly those during the upheaval after Warren Jeffs was imprisoned.



What distinguishes a religious cult from a religious sect or denomination?

Is there any basic difference between cult indoctrination and “religious teaching (or training)”?

ZZ:

Thank you so much for sharing this very personal story. Thanks to your wife also. Good for her for being strong enough to escape and brave!! I'm sure the choice to leave was a scary one to make. This is an amazing story and your wife's triumph is no less than truly inspirational. I can only say her strength has obviously endured to recover so nicely!

You're right - it is hard to imagine this type of cult in recent times. It really is!! It seems like the main difference between a religion and a cult is the 'extremity' of one. I mean this sounds like a movie - it is so crazy and so nightmarish. I understand a little more about where you are coming from in terms of God and what belief can do to someone.

Thank you again for sharing this...........who knows who it may help

[Flail]

Zzyx

You and your wife are very courageous and I am glad to share your acquaintance and viewpoints however limited by this forum.

I recently watched a documentary on Mormonism which chronicled it's origins and evolution from the typical religious Godly visions of Smith through Brigam Young and to present day. It seems that the original followers were simple farmers looking for an alternative to the self righteousness of Christianity. They were greatly persecuted by Christians and many were murdered at the hands of Christians belonging to other more popular sects.

I fail to understand why anyone would follow any religion or philosophy that proclaimed 'ownership of God and his Kingdom' in exclusion of any other being on this or any other planet. All of the most popular religions are based upon the 'teachings of man masqueraded as if from God'. When people draw a line in the sand and place themselves and God on one side of the line and anyone of different indoctrination or belief on the other, one has made a false leap from simple faith to the evils of selfish righteousness. When otherwise intelligent people find significance in such rituals as baptism, blessed sacraments,holy books and holy substances to such an extent that they are willing to fight and die over them, we can begin to understand the power of indoctrinations. When 'beliefs' based upon conjecture and someone else's supposed visions from God become the 'infallible and exclusive truth for all',the indoctrinated become much akin to 'dumb driven cattle'.

[cdcdcd]

While your views are firmly atheistic, I see no bitterness or prejudice, and for that, you too deserve admiration.

Actually, my views are more firmly Non-Theistic than Atheistic. My position is, “No evidence has been presented that would indicate to me that any supernatural beings exist. Therefore, I do NOT accept existence of such beings and do not support worshiping or otherwise becoming emotionally involved with beings that cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination.”

I differ a bit from Atheism in that it connotes and denotes an actual rejection of the existence of gods. I am open to the idea IF evidence is provided (and “evidence” is NOT hearsay, ancient writings or conjectures).

You need not have worried about me describing your views as "atheistic". The term "atheist" literally means "not thesist", exactly as you describe yourself, though I agree that many people do not interpret the term in this way. A wise atheist does not claim to know with absolute certainty that there is no God for at least two reasons. Firstly, in making such a claim he would be obliged to prove that there is no God, which is probably impossible. Secondly, the views of anyone with a closed mind, but no proof, are worthless, and the same is true for theists. FWIW, if you had not elaborated on your position, I would have pretty much assumed it anyway.

I am heartened to see that people from "both sides of the fence" are responding in a sympathetic and heartfelt way to your post. To me, this supports my long held view that the truly "good" part of people, that which science cannot measure but in no way denies, is completely independent of our religious belief.

[cnorman18]

You know what I think, Z. You and your wife see two of the most remarkable people I've ever heard of, let alone met, online or off. You have managed to find a way to live freely and without compromises in a unfree world full of them, and my admiration for you knows no bounds.

As you know, in my religion theology and belief takes a back seat to ethics and action, and by that standard you and your wife are the best.

As for your idea of a "flag of truce" room--I thought that's what this whole place was supposed to be. Sometimes people don't get the drift, but the mods are pretty good at throwing out the riffraff. For the most part, the debate around here is as advertised--civil and respectful.

Thanks for all you do. And special, heartfelt thanks for that other matter. I'm not posting as much lately, and that's why. It's a GOOD thing...

In deference to your convictions; if there is a God, may He continue to bless you both. If there isn't--well, may you live long and prosper. We should all be so lucky.

Maybe some of us will be.

[Zzyzx]

.
Thanks CD,

You need not have worried about me describing your views as "atheistic". The term "atheist" literally means "not thesist", exactly as you describe yourself, though I agree that many people do not interpret the term in this way.

I wasn’t concerned about “atheist” vs. “non-theist” but I seldom miss an opportunity to call attention to the fact that the term “atheist” has become associated with strong denial of deities, whereas many people do not accept the existence of supernatural beings but do not totally deny the possibility of their existence (perhaps awaiting evidence).

I am heartened to see that people from "both sides of the fence" are responding in a sympathetic and heartfelt way to your post.

The responses have been very appropriate and have been appreciated.

To me, this supports my long held view that the truly "good" part of people, that which science cannot measure but in no way denies, is completely independent of our religious belief.

I agree. Perhaps that is what we learn from sincere and tolerant communication.

Yesterday evening two friends dropped by and we spent an hour or so discussing semi-business matters sitting beside the “campfire” I typically keep going. One is a retired minister and the other a devout Christian. They are well aware of my non-theistic orientation. Our conversations do not contain “god talk”.

It is interesting that we ACT very similarly in any given situation. We may differ in degree but not in direction. For example, all of us are quick to help those sincerely in need – and firm in rejection of freeloaders.

I would like to think that members of this forum would, in person, act in “good” ways and cooperate with one another regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof.

[Zzyzx]

.

You know what I think, Z.

<Blush> We only do what we regard as right for us and for others (not necessarily in that order). She is truly remarkable; I am merely the “senior advisor” in this outfit.

We look forward to the possibility of meeting you in person before too long. In fact, we will be going to Waco within the next month or so and could perhaps arrange a stop in the Dallas area if that might be convenient for you (and if you are still there).

Regarding the “Flag of Truce” idea: I agree that this forum is very well moderated and is generally civil and more or less mutually respectful. However, there is an adversarial element, as expected in debate.

I was thinking of something along the lines of a place where we, representing many different viewpoints, actively seek areas of agreement rather than disagreement. Although we discover areas of agreement in the course of debates, wouldn’t an environment devoted to encouraging discovering agreement be a worthy addition to our efforts?

[pwsoldier]

Thank you for sharing that informative and very moving story. I'm very glad to hear about your wife's success in overcoming such a horrific experience. She must truly be a remarkable woman.

Having been raised in the main LDS church, I've seen intense indoctrination occur in the lives of many people, albeit on a much more watered-down level than you described. I have one friend in particular who went through very severe depression once it came time for her to go to college because she wasn't even remotely prepared to go off into the world due to living a very sheltered life. Fortunately, cases like hers seem to be rare in the mainstream LDS church. Utah may have its own set of issues, but I can't speak to that since I was raised on the East Coast.

To echo what previous posters have said, I think the main thing that seperates cult-like brainwashing and religious teaching is the intensity of the indoctrination. I don't throw the term "brainwashing" in there casually. That's exactly what takes place in cults. In fact, I'd call it one of the primary standards of defining a cult. It's one thing to discourage freethought, it's quite another to ruthlessly suppress it. The remarkable thing is that the theology itself doesn't really have to differ that much. It's the level of enforcement of those doctrines and the degree of allowance for deviation/doubt that seperates cults from religions.

[cnorman18]

.

You know what I think, Z.

<Blush> We only do what we regard as right for us and for others (not necessarily in that order). She is truly remarkable; I am merely the “senior advisor” in this outfit.

We look forward to the possibility of meeting you in person before too long. In fact, we will be going to Waco within the next month or so and could perhaps arrange a stop in the Dallas area if that might be convenient for you (and if you are still there).

It will be an honor. PM sent.

Regarding the “Flag of Truce” idea: I agree that this forum is very well moderated and is generally civil and more or less mutually respectful. However, there is an adversarial element, as expected in debate.

I was thinking of something along the lines of a place where we, representing many different viewpoints, actively seek areas of agreement rather than disagreement. Although we discover areas of agreement in the course of debates, wouldn’t an environment devoted to encouraging discovering agreement be a worthy addition to our efforts?

That would be a great idea. I propose the name "Common Ground".

[McCulloch]

Regarding the “Flag of Truce” idea: I agree that this forum is very well moderated and is generally civil and more or less mutually respectful. However, there is an adversarial element, as expected in debate.

I was thinking of something along the lines of a place where we, representing many different viewpoints, actively seek areas of agreement rather than disagreement. Although we discover areas of agreement in the course of debates, wouldn’t an environment devoted to encouraging discovering agreement be a worthy addition to our efforts?

That would be a great idea. I propose the name "Common Ground".

Putting Our Heads Together

The purpose of this subforum is try to find a solution (or several solutions) to problems that affect society. In a sense, it is opposite to debating since we are trying to find commonality, rather than pointing out differences.

It is important that everyone acknowledge each other's beliefs and sensitivities when we are trying to find a common solution. The ideal solution would be able to satisfy all participants, but more likely, it might be incompatible with another's belief system. But, as long as we respect differences of belief, hopefully we can reach some common ground on possible solutions.

Only moderators will be able to start a new thread in this subforum. But, if you have a suggestion for an issue to discuss, please post it in suggestion basket. If other members express interest or a moderator thinks it's a worthwhile subject, a thread will be created to discuss that issue.

When a new issue is posed, let's start by brainstorming ideas on how to solve that issue. We'll consider the pros and cons of the proposed solutions and refine them. Then, we'll try to reach some consensus on a solution(s) to the problem.

This exercise is highly experimental. So, the process will be refined as we try this out.