Is altruism impossible?

[Evales]

Is it possible?

[JoeyKnothead]

I consider any act of kindness to be selfish, as it ultimately is done to make ourselves feel better, or for theists it helps them score 'heaven' points. That said, it is still important that we do what we can to help when we can.

[Thought Criminal]

I consider any act of kindness to be selfish, as it ultimately is done to make ourselves feel better, or for theists it helps them score 'heaven' points. That said, it is still important that we do what we can to help when we can.

See, this is just another example of trying to misdefine altruism out of existence.

Here's what the dictionary has:

altruism: the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

If I hold the door open for someone because it's the right thing to do, how is this selifsh?

TC

[JoeyKnothead]

I consider any act of kindness to be selfish, as it ultimately is done to make ourselves feel better, or for theists it helps them score 'heaven' points. That said, it is still important that we do what we can to help when we can.

See, this is just another example of trying to misdefine altruism out of existence.

Here's what the dictionary has:

altruism: the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others (opposed to egoism).

selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

If I hold the door open for someone because it's the right thing to do, how is this selifsh?

TC

I would say you hold that door open because it 'feels right' or 'it's the right thing to do'. Thus, you have done these things for an honorably selfish reason. By no means do I propose it is somehow wrong, or not a good thing, just that it is selfish. Selfish in that if you didn't do it, you might feel like you had slighted that person by not holding the door open, and thus would feel a bit less of yourself.

[Thought Criminal]

Look, you can play this game forever but all you're doing is trying to ruin a perfectly good distinction.

If I give you a ride in my car because you need a ride, that's altruism. If I do it because I plan to drop you off in the woods, take your money and kill you, then it's not.

If we accept these various misdefinitions under which altruism is made logically impossible, we become unable to speak of altruism.

TC

[JoeyKnothead]

Look, you can play this game forever but all you're doing is trying to ruin a perfectly good distinction.

If I give you a ride in my car because you need a ride, that's altruism. If I do it because I plan to drop you off in the woods, take your money and kill you, then it's not.

If we accept these various misdefinitions under which altruism is made logically impossible, we become unable to speak of altruism.

TC

LOL! I'm really not trying to play games, and I totally get the distinction between the two. The OP asks if altruism is possible. In the tightest definition, I say it is not. In the looser, more common term it is.

I was raised to open doors for women as an act of courtesy/kindness. Why do I do it? Because if my mom ever catches me not doing so she will hit me. Am I selfish for not wanting to get hit? i think so. Further, I open doors because it does make me feel good to help another person. Now, do I receive a benefit for opening doors? A small, perhaps immeasurable one, but even as it approaches infinitely small it still is there.

Now a tougher one. I will stop to change a flat tire for anyone I think needs it. I've even done so in the rain. This I would think could be closer to altruism, but again, I feel it my duty to help folks that need it. I am answering an internal call, so I say I am still acting selfishly, as I would feel bad if I didn't help. While the weight of altruism could very well be greater than my selfish need to help, the selfish need to help is still there.

So I honestly think that altruism does not exist without a certain selfish need to help.

[Thought Criminal]

LOL! I'm really not trying to play games, and I totally get the distinction between the two. The OP asks if altruism is possible. In the tightest definition, I say it is not. In the looser, more common term it is.

I was raised to open doors for women as an act of courtesy/kindness. Why do I do it? Because if my mom ever catches me not doing so she will hit me. Am I selfish for not wanting to get hit? i think so. Further, I open doors because it does make me feel good to help another person. Now, do I receive a benefit for opening doors? A small, perhaps immeasurable one, but even as it approaches infinitely small it still is there.

Now a tougher one. I will stop to change a flat tire for anyone I think needs it. I've even done so in the rain. This I would think could be closer to altruism, but again, I feel it my duty to help folks that need it. I am answering an internal call, so I say I am still acting selfishly, as I would feel bad if I didn't help. While the weight of altruism could very well be greater than my selfish need to help, the selfish need to help is still there.

So I honestly think that altruism does not exist without a certain selfish need to help.

Rather than debating this topic as if it were something novel, let me suggest that we might all benefit from a brief scan of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

TC

[JoeyKnothead]

I went to the wiki site, but it wasn't enough to convince me. I'm not trying to just stubbornly stick to a position, but I think my point is still valid. I by far am no genius, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I have seen no info to change my mind.

I respect you, and your position TC, and on the face of it I can concede altruism within a looser definition. Honesty compels me though to say you have not made the case strong enough for me to change my position.

[Thought Criminal]

I went to the wiki site, but it wasn't enough to convince me. I'm not trying to just stubbornly stick to a position, but I think my point is still valid. I by far am no genius, and maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I have seen no info to change my mind.

I respect you, and your position TC, and on the face of it I can concede altruism within a looser definition. Honesty compels me though to say you have not made the case strong enough for me to change my position.

Do you have any refutation for the criticisms listed on that site?

TC

[Beto]

Suppose "altruism", as a human perceives it, is simply an evolutionary remnant of a once beneficial behavior, like the one we see on food-sharing monkeys. If "altruism" is instinctual, than it doesn't really exist as an "unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others". It's just an itch we have to scratch.