For quite some time, I have been of the opinion that suicide is always immoral. This intuition arises out of my awe at how complicated and delicate the human body is, yet how elegantly all these systems work together, for the most part.
However I read something the other day which was to the effect of, "Life is for learning and growing, not for suffering through." I have to admit that this makes a lot of sense to me, too. But this leads to the possibility that at times suicide is justified. Specifically, when one can reasonably expect an excess of suffering in the future, and this condition will prevent any significant growth as a person, contribution to society, or whatever that person finds meaningful.
When I thought about this further, I realized that I probably wouldn't begrudge someone who committed suicide, provided they had rationally come to the conclusion that these criteria were satisfied. While I would never advise suicide, I think my view has changed to the point where I can accept it in certain circumstances without condemning it. I'm wondering what others think about the morality of suicide. Is it on par with murder because it ends a human life? Or is it a different act because rational beings are free to choose death for themselves although not for others?
Morality of Suicide
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Post #61
Hmmn, it comes down to perception and belief I suppose.ravenssong wrote:technically living is a selfish act, I mean things things have to die to sustain you, right? Isn't it selfish to assume you are more worthy of life than a carrot or a cow?saitohaj wrote:Personally I fell suicide is just a selfish act.
Ah, but who is right and who is wrong, runs the debate.
good for the goose
Post #62i can put my dog down if it is suffering and beyond repair....
i can put my horse down if he is suffering and beyond repair....
but if i am suffering and beyond repair god wants me to enjoy the full ride, painfully circling around the drain....for however long it takes for me to die.....
looking forward to that.....
hey if its good enough for my dogs and horses its good enough for me....
imo- suicide is not a moral issue its a personal choice...
i can put my horse down if he is suffering and beyond repair....
but if i am suffering and beyond repair god wants me to enjoy the full ride, painfully circling around the drain....for however long it takes for me to die.....
looking forward to that.....
hey if its good enough for my dogs and horses its good enough for me....
imo- suicide is not a moral issue its a personal choice...
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Post #63
The irony is that we are only allowed to be humane to non-humans. We even deny some of the most effective pain relief to terminal patients because they are addictive.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
- flitzerbiest
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Re: good for the goose
Post #65I think that it would be helpful for purposes of debate to distinguish between suicides which occur for purpose of pain relief at the brink of death and suicides which occur out of despair in an otherwise healthy individual.sarabellum wrote:i can put my dog down if it is suffering and beyond repair....
i can put my horse down if he is suffering and beyond repair....
but if i am suffering and beyond repair god wants me to enjoy the full ride, painfully circling around the drain....for however long it takes for me to die.....
looking forward to that.....
hey if its good enough for my dogs and horses its good enough for me....
imo- suicide is not a moral issue its a personal choice...
me personally
Post #66i can not say for another person when too much emotional pain or sadness is too great a burden for them to endure...healthy or otherwise.....
i can not judge them only morn there passing....
i can not judge them only morn there passing....
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Re: good for the goose
Post #67I think that the critical issue is about who gets to decide. Who's life is it anyway?flitzerbiest wrote: I think that it would be helpful for purposes of debate to distinguish between suicides which occur for purpose of pain relief at the brink of death and suicides which occur out of despair in an otherwise healthy individual.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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Post #69
I'm amazed to see only hints at my prime reason for not committing suicide.
"Others"! 99.9% of us know someone who would at the very least be "bothered for life" if we committed suicide. I mean they will always wonder if there "was anything I could have done". Humans tend to blame themselves in such matters. In the worst case, anyone directly related to you will be emotionally traumatized by your suicide. It'll be a "lead-weight" that you've strapped to their back -- for life. It may even give them permission to someday duplicate your action. Is that what anybody would really want?
We don't have the moral right to harm others -- and that's what suicide does -- it harms others. Suicide is sometimes called "an immature act" or even a "selfish act". Failure to consider the harm to others is indeed immature and selfish yes? Many suicides are in fact "passive aggressive" acts -- aimed at retaliation for perceived injustices ("How could she leave me? It's so unfair -- she needs to see what she's done...*bang*")
No, perservering -- even against hope -- is a sacrificial act worthy of a child of God. It speaks to those who will ultimately follow us -- that Life is sacred -- and it shows reverence for God's absolute control over life and death.
Having said that, I personally understand why we might pray to be released from life. "Lord I'm ready" is not selfish at all. One day God will answer that prayer. No doubt. Until then, consider that God clearly uses suffering to bring us to our knees -- and that is worth any amount of suffering -- as it joins us to Him.
When I face our creator and God -- I hope to know I was invited -- and not purloined-in. I want to have a clean heart before God -- and not be still writhing in the self pity that ended in my self-destruction of "God's temple".
Yeah, I hate pain and suffering too -- but I'd be a hypocrite to suddenly take back my life from God -- after I abandoned all hope years ago -- and gave my life to him. He's calling the shots now -- especially the final one.
"Others"! 99.9% of us know someone who would at the very least be "bothered for life" if we committed suicide. I mean they will always wonder if there "was anything I could have done". Humans tend to blame themselves in such matters. In the worst case, anyone directly related to you will be emotionally traumatized by your suicide. It'll be a "lead-weight" that you've strapped to their back -- for life. It may even give them permission to someday duplicate your action. Is that what anybody would really want?
We don't have the moral right to harm others -- and that's what suicide does -- it harms others. Suicide is sometimes called "an immature act" or even a "selfish act". Failure to consider the harm to others is indeed immature and selfish yes? Many suicides are in fact "passive aggressive" acts -- aimed at retaliation for perceived injustices ("How could she leave me? It's so unfair -- she needs to see what she's done...*bang*")
No, perservering -- even against hope -- is a sacrificial act worthy of a child of God. It speaks to those who will ultimately follow us -- that Life is sacred -- and it shows reverence for God's absolute control over life and death.
Having said that, I personally understand why we might pray to be released from life. "Lord I'm ready" is not selfish at all. One day God will answer that prayer. No doubt. Until then, consider that God clearly uses suffering to bring us to our knees -- and that is worth any amount of suffering -- as it joins us to Him.
When I face our creator and God -- I hope to know I was invited -- and not purloined-in. I want to have a clean heart before God -- and not be still writhing in the self pity that ended in my self-destruction of "God's temple".
Yeah, I hate pain and suffering too -- but I'd be a hypocrite to suddenly take back my life from God -- after I abandoned all hope years ago -- and gave my life to him. He's calling the shots now -- especially the final one.
Post #70
But they shouldn't have to be if you explain that you've reasoned your decision and that it is in your best interests, etc.[color=green]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:"Others"! 99.9% of us know someone who would at the very least be "bothered for life" if we committed suicide. I mean they will always wonder if there "was anything I could have done". Humans tend to blame themselves in such matters. In the worst case, anyone directly related to you will be emotionally traumatized by your suicide. It'll be a "lead-weight" that you've strapped to their back -- for life. It may even give them permission to someday duplicate your action. Is that what anybody would really want?
Also, I don't think that what others think should have any impact on your decisions unless it directly effects them.
Finally, if you can't deal with the deaths of those close to you... Good luck.
Says who?[color=indigo]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:We don't have the moral right to harm others
In some instances, yes.[color=red]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:and that's what suicide does -- it harms others.
This is not necessarily true, though. Also, given proper education on the matter, it need not actually be a notable problem.
Yes, but you're assuming that such harm has not been considered. Failure to abstain from suicide for those reasons is not necessarily immature, and I'd argue that considering those to be absolute reasons against suicide is extremely immature and short-sighted.[color=blue]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:Suicide is sometimes called "an immature act" or even a "selfish act". Failure to consider the harm to others is indeed immature and selfish yes?
And many aren't.[color=green]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:Many suicides are in fact "passive aggressive" acts -- aimed at retaliation for perceived injustices ("How could she leave me? It's so unfair -- she needs to see what she's done...*bang*")
If you intend to use this as some sort of an argument, I'll ask that you provide some statistics and actually make a point.
Regardless, education on such matters would be appropriate in helping combat this, as well as objective, unbiased education on suicide and its effects, etc.
This is pure opinion.[color=orange]HandsRaised[/color] wrote:No, perservering -- even against hope -- is a sacrificial act worthy of a child of God. It speaks to those who will ultimately follow us -- that Life is sacred -- and it shows reverence for God's absolute control over life and death.
Having said that, I personally understand why we might pray to be released from life. "Lord I'm ready" is not selfish at all. One day God will answer that prayer. No doubt. Until, consider that God clearly uses suffering to bring us to our knees -- and that is worth any amount of suffering as it joins us to Him.
When I face our creator and God -- I hope to know I was invited -- and not purloined-in. I want to have a clean heart before God -- not still writhing in the self pity that ended in self-destruction of "God's temple".
Yeah, I hate pain and suffering too -- but I'd be a hypocrite to suddenly take back from life from God -- after I abandoned all hope years ago -- and gave my life to him. He's calling the shots now -- especially the final one.
Also, if God is calling all the shots, he must have created souls destined for eternal torture, no?