How do you know God is the good guy?

[The Happy Humanist]

In another thread, I was told that true morality is found by following God. God, we are told, is the source of absolute morality, the final arbiter of good and evil in the universe.

How do we know this? How do we come to assume that God's good is really good? Sure, we are told as much by the Bible. But it's one thing to accept the Bible as God's word...but what if he's lying?

What I'm asking is, what is it about God that makes you so sure he's the good guy, the one you should be following? And how can you trust your instincts in this regard, when you believe he is the source of your moral compass in the first place? Would it not be possible for a Supreme Being to plant a moral compass in you that automatically registers his words as "good", no matter what?

So? Discuss!

[Tigerlilly]

Personally, I think the Bible is a lot of propaganda mixed with some truth about God (assuming his existence). We never hear the story from Satan's point of view or the point of view of other Angels.

We already know that God is both the source of good and Evil, yet he always referrs to Satan as the Evil one, the bad one, and the corruptor, but this is heresay comming from the enemy of Satan.

Naturally, someone who hates you will spread lies about you and talk badly at all costs. God is the enemy of Satan, yet we only have one point of view, and I doubt we know the true nature of went on from a neutral persepective.

One can parallel this story of the war between God and Satan with our own natures. To the winner go the spoils, and History is written by the victor.

Satan lost, therefore he doesn't write the history. God is the one who won, so he writes history to his benefit, and no one would be the wiser.

In the bible, GOd is always the one doing the killings and the punishments, never Satan. I think there is more evidence to show God is worse than Satan, from a consequence and concrete point of view.

[The Happy Humanist]

In the bible, GOd is always the one doing the killings and the punishments, never Satan. I think there is more evidence to show God is worse than Satan, from a consequence and concrete point of view.

Of course, you make some excellent points!

I am hoping, however, to hear from someone that truly believes God is the source of all Goodness, and that everything he does is good, and that what he has laid down for us in terms of morality parallels this "absolute good" that we hear about.

[Amphigorey]

We never hear the story from Satan's point of view or the point of view of other Angels.

About the best you can do is consult translations of the Nag Hammadi texts for alternate opinions outside the Bible.

Satan lost, therefore he doesn't write the history. God is the one who won, so he writes history to his benefit, and no one would be the wiser.

In Bilbical cosmology where the earth is stationary and the Sun and Stars revolve around it, Hell is literally the center of the universe while Heaven is on the periphery. Does this imply that Satan lost? One could argue that being the center of the Universe means he's won.

[chrispalasz]

Cliff wrote:
Living within that plan is true morality.

jimspeiser wrote: Oh? And just how do we know that for certain? This is going to be the topic of an upcoming message I plan to post, but thought I would tease it here:

error # 1:

jimspeiser wrote: Say you're successful in convincing me that there is a Creator-God.

Then you would not be a Christian, having been convinced by a human. God uses Christians to be His light and love and to do His good works... but it is God who does them, not Christians. If you had been convinced by a human - you would not be a Christian... but you would probably think that you are.

jimspeiser wrote: How can I be certain that he is really the Good Guy? Couldn't an all-powerful being convince us that what he says is really, truly good, when he is, in fact, not so good? Perhaps even evil?

A faulty argument, but I know you did it on purpose so I'll ignore that part of it. For anyone to say that God is not good - they, in those very words, prove themselves not to be good. This is because those people, assuming they die with this attitude, will experience God's wrath. Of course wrath is never "good" to the one experiencing it... but God is always Just, and so evil will pay its due.

To answer your first question, though, if you had been convinced that God exists through asking Him and getting a repsonse, you would know that He is really the Good Guy. God demonstrates to me, in my life, that He is good every single day that I'm alive. So reason #1 comes from personal experience. Reason #2 does not work on its own, but it is because God (who is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit) tells us so. Reason #3 is because the Bible says that God created us in His image. That being the case - we have been created with "programming", as you mentioned - which is the way our bodies and brains work (essentially: biology). So we know that our "programming" is that of God's desire. Our sense of Good and Morality are "programmed" by God. That is why we know that He is moral - because He is the very definition of Moral. He created morality just as He created us - so how could he NOT be moral?

That would be like me making up a word "griftog" - and me telling you that griftog is my state of happiness or lack there of. Now, you can't tell me that I am not griftog. My state of happiness is the very definition of the word. The same is true for morality, Good, and God.

If God had created homosexuality, stealing, or lying to be "good" things... then God would demonstrate those things through the life of Jesus Christ and we would receive those traits from Him. Thankfully, this is not (nor will it ever be) the case.

[chrispalasz]

Tigerlilly: We never hear the story from Satan's point of view or the point of view of other Angels.

God is not so limited as us humans. There is fallacy in your logic.

When you appear before the judgement seat of God, He will not ask you for your point of view. He will not say, "wait, didn't anyone tell you I'm God? Shoot. I they were supposed to tell everyone..."

He does not need to ask anyone's view - He knows their view. He's God. Lets break this down a little more. Given Satan's objective: To defy God by whatever means, how could we ever trust "Satan's point of view". That would be ridiculous.

I am confident to say that we have, in fact, heard Satan's point of view. God told us. Knowing all things - He is perfectly capable and equipped to do so. God is not subject to your argument. Your argument is subject to God.

Tigerlilly: Naturally, someone who hates you will spread lies about you and talk badly at all costs. God is the enemy of Satan, yet we only have one point of view, and I doubt we know the true nature of went on from a neutral persepective.

And that may be because neutral does not actually exist as applied to the larger divine picture. You may see, or want to see, neutrality in this life... but to God there is no neutrality. In fact... there is no neutrality in this life either, even if we sometimes think we see it. Everything is black and white, right and wrong. I do not know the answer to every question regarding which is which - I am a sinner - but God does.

Tigerlilly: In the bible, GOd is always the one doing the killings and the punishments, never Satan. I think there is more evidence to show God is worse than Satan, from a consequence and concrete point of view.

And that is what Satan would want you to see.

And I want to touch back on this neutrality issue. Actually, no. I won't I'll start a new thread and provide the link to it on this post. The question will be to discuss the existance of neutrality.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 1734#11734

[chrispalasz]

Amphigorey: In Bilbical cosmology where the earth is stationary and the Sun and Stars revolve around it, Hell is literally the center of the universe while Heaven is on the periphery. Does this imply that Satan lost?

No. That's not Biblical cosmology. The Bible does not say that. That's just how ancient Israel and others have interpreted Bible passages. The Bible never comes out and says that. Your argument isn't coming from the Bible - but from interpretation.

Also, given everything else that is said in the Bible, then yes. I would say that Satan has definitively lost.

One could argue that being the center of the Universe means he's won.

Well, yeah. One can make all sorts of arguments... but that doesn't mean they're good ones.

[Amphigorey]

If you had been convinced by a human - you would not be a Christian... but you would probably think that you are.

So proselytizing is all for naught?

For anyone to say that God is not good - they, in those very words, prove themselves not to be good. ... but God is always Just, and so evil will pay its due.

And anyone who says anything against your religion is evil, and in league with the Devil.

To answer your first question, though, if you had been convinced that God exists through asking Him and getting a repsonse, you would know that He is really the Good Guy.

We'll ignore the case of Satan spoofing God on the communications line (i.e. you assume the response is from God).

God demonstrates to me, in my life, that He is good every single day that I'm alive. So reason #1 comes from personal experience.

Pretty nice things happen to me everyday too, but why should I assume God has anthing to do with them? I can understand that if I lived in a predominantly Christian culture, it would be easy and understandable to make that association.

Reason #2 does not work on its own, but it is because God (who is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit) tells us so.

Does this refer to something in another thread?

Reason #3 is because the Bible says that God created us in His image. That being the case - we have been created with "programming", as you mentioned - which is the way our bodies and brains work (essentially: biology). So we know that our "programming" is that of God's desire. Our sense of Good and Morality are "programmed" by God. That is why we know that He is moral - because He is the very definition of Moral. He created morality just as He created us - so how could he NOT be moral?

People all over the world and throughout all time have shared the moral sense. Exactly what they think is moral or ethical changes over time. The scientific debates over why we share the moral sense are far from over. Cognitive Scientists like Steven Pinker are at work understanding its role in human development.

If God had created homosexuality, stealing, or lying to be "good" things... then God would demonstrate those things through the life of Jesus Christ and we would receive those traits from Him. Thankfully, this is not (nor will it ever be) the case.

This really gets to a fundamental problem with most monotheistic belief systems. To "receive those traits from him" (him being the deity) he has to model them himself. My point is that human nature, human experience is simply too broad to be illustrated or embodied by a single individual.

To be fair, I know that not all monotheistic systems involve earthly, human-like representatives who are supposed to embody all that is perfect. Sometimes the earthly rep is merely the teacher or guide with no claim to personal perfection. I don't want to paint too broadly here.

[The Happy Humanist]

Cliff wrote:
Living within that plan is true morality.

jimspeiser wrote: Oh? And just how do we know that for certain? This is going to be the topic of an upcoming message I plan to post, but thought I would tease it here:

error # 1:

jimspeiser wrote: Say you're successful in convincing me that there is a Creator-God.

Then you would not be a Christian, having been convinced by a human. God uses Christians to be His light and love and to do His good works... but it is God who does them, not Christians. If you had been convinced by a human - you would not be a Christian... but you would probably think that you are.

Ok, I will add this to my lengthy list of "ways Christians define themselves."

jimspeiser wrote: How can I be certain that he is really the Good Guy? Couldn't an all-powerful being convince us that what he says is really, truly good, when he is, in fact, not so good? Perhaps even evil?

A faulty argument, but I know you did it on purpose so I'll ignore that part of it.

Huh? Humor me, what part is faulty?

For anyone to say that God is not good - they, in those very words, prove themselves not to be good. This is because those people, assuming they die with this attitude, will experience God's wrath. Of course wrath is never "good" to the one experiencing it... but God is always Just, and so evil will pay its due.

There ya go assuming again. How do you know his Justice is true Justice?

To answer your first question, though, if you had been convinced that God exists through asking Him and getting a repsonse, you would know that He is really the Good Guy. God demonstrates to me, in my life, that He is good every single day that I'm alive. So reason #1 comes from personal experience. Reason #2 does not work on its own, but it is because God (who is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit) tells us so.

I'm glad you acknowledge that it doesn't work on its own.

Reason #3 is because the Bible says that God created us in His image. That being the case - we have been created with "programming", as you mentioned - which is the way our bodies and brains work (essentially: biology). So we know that our "programming" is that of God's desire. Our sense of Good and Morality are "programmed" by God. That is why we know that He is moral - because He is the very definition of Moral. He created morality just as He created us - so how could he NOT be moral?

So, the sense I'm getting here is that since God by definition is "Good" and "Moral" and serves as the definition thereof, then anything God says is good is automatically good, no matter how immoral or unjust we perceive it to be?

Let me ask you this, is there nothing in the Bible that gives you pause, that makes you wince and think, "Gosh, that seems a little harsh, He didn't have to do that," or "Gosh, I wish He'd thrown in a little commandment against slavery or something"? Because many of us non-believers get that very feeling. Where do you suppose that comes from? It can't come from the moral compass that God programmed into us, it has to come from someplace else, right? Yet, how can the Created attain a sense of morality that seemingly exceeds that of the Creator? How is it we learned to abandon slavery on our own, when God apparently sanctioned it?

If God had created homosexuality, stealing, or lying to be "good" things... then God would demonstrate those things through the life of Jesus Christ and we would receive those traits from Him. Thankfully, this is not (nor will it ever be) the case.

No, you're right. He must have created those things for some other, nefarious purpose. (Gotcha!)

==JJS==

[dangerdan]

Given Satan's objective: To defy God by whatever means, how could we ever trust "Satan's point of view". That would be ridiculous.

But Greenlight, how have you come to know such facts about Satan? Because God told you so? Perhaps the supernatural being called Satan rightfully rebelled against God, because God was abusing her power by committing genocide and cursing half of the human race with painful childbirth for the actions of an ancestor…oh no wait, she hadn’t don’t that…yet…

Perhaps God was a bit embarrassed so she gave this morally superior creature a bad rap. The point is - if all your knowledge about the supernatural world is coming from God, then what’s stopping her from fudging the facts?

Hehehe, here I am talking about supernatural “facts”…

As an interesting side note, I’ve noticed that a lot of the qualities associated with Satan - envy, jealousy, hatred, anger, vanity - are all practiced by God without apology.