10CC wrote:
Sonofason wrote:
10CC wrote:
Sonofason wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
YahDough wrote:
If your suicide mentality is to escape eminent suffering, then your logic fails. You have falsely assumed that death brings oblivion to consciousness and an end to both joy and suffering. While you may consider my statement an opinion, I will also defend it as truth. We have a soul with a consciousness that only God can destroy.
That is really a wonderful thing to hear! It is so rare that believers in the afterlife do this. I eagerly look forward to seeing you defend your statement as truth. I do so much want not to miss your defense of this statement, that I have created
a separate debate thread just for it.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=23202 
YahDough wrote:
I think it would be better to try to make peace with God before you die than to vainly try to escape God's judgment/justice through suicide.
There was no mention made of evading God's judgement or God's justice with regard to suicide. The argument was made that suicide may be a valid ending of a life that, in the opinion of the person living that life, has no more value. We all will die sometime and why should a person be subjected to an end period of life that consists entirely of pain and misery if he does not wish it?
Because your life may not truly be your own. In a totalitarian regime, you belong to the regime. As an infant, you belong to your parents. As a father, or mother, you belong to your children. That is why they can use words that signify a claim of possession, words like, "my father".
My life is very much my own. If I decide that I no longer want it then that is my decision. No one else.
I would call that a state of denial. But, yes, you are certainly an autonomous human being with the freedom to shirk your responsibilities.
Denial of what? Shirk what responsibilities? What are you talking about, I don't think you make any sense.
According to Scripture, speaking of those who are in Christ:
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand". (John 10:27,28).
"know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
(1 Corinthians: 19-20)
According to Scripture, speaking of those who are not in Christ:
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him."
But honestly, this was just a side note. What we are talking about here is rights, and individual liberties. And from what I can see clearly, rights are man-made. People grant rights to other people. People can also claim rights for themselves; but that is of course only possible if they are capable of maintaining the rights that they claim for themselves.
In this world, community is of greater value than the individual. Why? Because it has greater power than the individual. If the individual members of a community can pull together for some particular cause, let's say to grant unto themselves some particular right, they will only be able to enjoy those rights if they are stronger and/or more powerful than those that might oppose them in their cause.
In this particular case, we're talking about the right to end one's own life.
So lets try to define what rights are.
"Human rights are based on the principle of respect for the individual. Their fundamental assumption is that each person is a moral and rational being who deserves to be treated with dignity. They are called human rights because they are universal. Whereas nations or specialized groups enjoy specific rights that apply only to them, human rights are the rights to which everyone is entitled—no matter who they are or where they live—simply because they are alive."
http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-human-rights.html
First we must recognize that this very strange concept is based on an assumption. It is an assumption that may or may not be true. Why do we think that every person deserves to be treated with dignity? Perhaps we don't. That is a pretty subjective idea, and therefore it truly cannot be verified. Thus I could say that, while people do recognize that human beings have rights, it isn't necessarily the case that human beings deserve an entitlement by the community to have and enjoy them.
But as I said, the community has greater power than the individual, (in most cases), and so if the community should decide, or determine to recognize rights of individuals, and if the community is capable of maintaining the rights that they grant to others, we can for purposes of argument at least recognize rights as something, however vague a concept it may be. Let me explain.
People might say that I do not have the right to end my own life. But the fact is, I don't need permission in this time in history, to end my life. I can drive off a bridge, shoot myself in the head, or employ a number or methods that will end my life. The fact that society as a whole does not grant me a right to end my life is truly a matter of no regard. If I want to end my life, if I am capable of ending my life, if I have the means to end my life, if I act to end my life, I shall indeed end my life. So then, do I have a right to end my life? The question is moot. I can if I determine to do so.
But since suicide has been determined to be an illegal act, a non-right of the individual, at this time, suicide is something that must be done in secret. What we are considering is a society that is willing to let you die or to help you to die if that is what you personally desire.
Interestingly, community is not where it ends. Communities often, for various reasons delegate the responsibility of maintaining human rights to smaller groups that we call governments. Governments seemingly are more powerful than the general community as well as any particular individual, but of course, that is not necessarily so. Some individuals could theoretically become more powerful than even governments. But, we can set that notion aside for now. Governments are autonomous entities. They are put in place by the community, and have greater power than the community. The interesting thing is that a government may not have the same goals that the community has that put them in place. Is it advantageous for a government to allow or to help individuals to die? If not, there is no reason to think that human beings have the right to end their own lives. If it is advantageous for the government to allow individuals to end their own lives, we can conceive of governments that finds it advantageous to end human lives, even without the consent of the individual.
The fact is you belong to your Big Brother. You are not your own.
