Second Coming in the Sky?

[liamconnor]

Certain biblical authors talk of Christ returning from the sky: Acts and Paul.

Paul tells Christians that they will be caught up to meet him.


There is an obvious imaginative problem here: even if a figure should appear in the sky, that portion of sky will be visible from only so many miles. The number of people who could fly up to surround such a flying figure can only be so many; twenty, thirty?

At any rate, even during Paul's time people in Ephesus could not possibly see clouds in Thessalonia.


Did Paul believe that Jesus would literally return on clouds and therefore in one particular place in space? Or was Paul less interested in such literal details as he was in theological and apocalyptic precedents? Namely, Daniel's apocalypse, where

"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Dan 7:13 NAS)

Daniel clearly uses symbolism throughout much of the book.

Do the early Christians use symbolism also when writing of Jesus' return?

[onewithhim]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

LOL. Of course I don't mean that we are no different than a robot that is made of metal! The Bible says that God made Adam from the DUST OF THE GROUND. We are composed of every element that is found in the ground. (Genesis 2:7)

God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. He remembers every detail about every person who ever lived. His recollection is better than any video tape could be.

I find it hard to follow your allusions to spirits who will live in heaven, because I believe that most humans will be brought back to life here on Earth to live here forever. We will all have physical bodies, and Jehovah can remember every person and how that person was made up, what his personality was like, what his thoughts were, what he looked like---everything. Our final destination is not heaven. It is here on the earth, just like Adam was made to live on the earth. That was God's plan and He hasn't changed His mind. (Isaiah 45:18)

[marco]

Just wondering if you read all of the verses in Daniel that I quoted.

You do know that the words are not possessed of a singular meaning. Different people interpret them in ways their own, I'm afraid. What on earth is someone "like a son of man"? Another man? And what meaning does coming in the clouds of heaven have? Does he just mean clouds in the sky?

And you ask - who are the saints? The RC Church will tell you they are the people of eminent virtue that she has canonised, most recently of course John Paul 11.

How is it possible for someone to declare their view is definitely right? From where I sit, the RC view has more merit, and much more authenticity in its connection to Christ. This does not mean I agree with it -only that it is better than the JW claim.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 41 by onewithhim]

"God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. "

Why would HE want to do that?

That's not worthy of Creator Being we call God.

This is ignoring Apostols' and Jesus' teaching and His amazing Revelaton.

[marco]

[Replying to post 41 by onewithhim]

"God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. "

Why would HE want to do that?

That's not worthy of Creator Being we call God.

This is ignoring Apostles' and Jesus' teaching and His amazing Revelation.

Yes it does sound rather grotesque. Normally when one comes to an absurdity one abandons one's proposition. It is odd that in matters theological this simple stratagem is ignored.

[Trump]

So how do you understand "every eye shall see him" in Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. ?

I don't believe those that "pierced him (Jesus) is to be taken literally because the people that stabbed Jesus, notably the Roman soldiers will have been long dead by the time of Christ's return. I think it means those that oppose his "brothers" (see Mat 25:40)

I understand it to mean "see" with ones "eye of understanding". In a similar way we say "I see" when someone has explained a point what we mean is not literally that we see something literally with our eyes (we usually see the same person before and afte the point has been explained) what we mean is "I understand" "I have grasped the point". When Jesus comes those that have opposed Jesus' people will understand the gravity of their situation and will "wail" or express their grief at their imminent end (compare Matthew 13:14)


Further reading
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989263#h=16

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point, not even close to the context Revelation 1:7 was given.

Also see Acts 1:9-11

We have to be careful not to use the Bible to justify our own personal beliefs, but use it to make sure we understand the message given.

[Trump]

The spirit is not corruptible, or perishable so according to your understanding, what would your quoted verses mean? especially verse 53?

1Corrinthians 15: 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory.

We don't HAVE a spirit being inside us that leaves us at death and goes somewhere else, to consciously keep living. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The bodies Paul talks about are physical bodies and spirit bodies---non-physical. Paul was explaining that when those early Christians died and then were resurrected they would CHANGE and no longer have their physical bodies, which are corruptible, but they would have spirit bodies that are imperishable. As such they will be able to live in heaven, where flesh cannot go. (I Corinth.15:50)

Thank you again onewithhim

Our physical body, this flesh is made up of dust (genesis 2:7) which contain all kinds of metals. Are you saying we are no different than a robot, other then in complexity?

Why would God resurrect the body if he will not use any of it for as you say no flesh can enter Heaven, and since he is turning us into spirit?

What I'm asking is why turn the 'body/flesh' into spirit, .. wouldn't just making a spirit make more sense? Is there anything that God will salvage from this body that he will implement into the spirit-body?

LOL. Of course I don't mean that we are no different than a robot that is made of metal! The Bible says that God made Adam from the DUST OF THE GROUND. We are composed of every element that is found in the ground. (Genesis 2:7)

God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. He remembers every detail about every person who ever lived. His recollection is better than any video tape could be.

I find it hard to follow your allusions to spirits who will live in heaven, because I believe that most humans will be brought back to life here on Earth to live here forever. We will all have physical bodies, and Jehovah can remember every person and how that person was made up, what his personality was like, what his thoughts were, what he looked like---everything. Our final destination is not heaven. It is here on the earth, just like Adam was made to live on the earth. That was God's plan and He hasn't changed His mind. (Isaiah 45:18)

Thanks again onewithhim

So you don't believe we have a spirit that operates this body of dust? Or that we can invite Gods Spirit, or demons into this house of flesh made of dust?

How do you understand demonic possession, like the ones Jesus cast out of men? Was that just mental illness and Jesus removed the tumor, and 'casting out demons' was just symbolic?

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you JehovahsWitness, the verses you have given me proves your point [...]

You're most welcome, if you have any further questions or would like any other information feel free to ask.

Have an excellent day,

JW

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 47 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't believe those that "pierced him (Jesus) is to be taken literally because the people that stabbed Jesus, notably the Roman soldiers will have been long dead by the time of Christ's return. I think it means those that oppose his "brothers" (see Mat 25:40)

2nd T. Judaism in general and N.T. specifically believed in the resurrection of the dead: so the timeline here is irrelevant.

[liamconnor]

Just wondering if you read all of the verses in Daniel that I quoted.

You do know that the words are not possessed of a singular meaning. Different people interpret them in ways their own, I'm afraid. What on earth is someone "like a son of man"? Another man? And what meaning does coming in the clouds of heaven have? Does he just mean clouds in the sky?

And you ask - who are the saints? The RC Church will tell you they are the people of eminent virtue that she has canonised, most recently of course John Paul 11.

How is it possible for someone to declare their view is definitely right? From where I sit, the RC view has more merit, and much more authenticity in its connection to Christ. This does not mean I agree with it -only that it is better than the JW claim.

The less one reads the easier it is to fall into hermeneutical relativism. It is advisable in any argument to be up to date with the most recent publications on the subject.

It is good practice, therefore, to ask oneself, "Before I comment on this or that passage, how much research have I done on it?"

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 41 by onewithhim]

"God's power will resurrect dead people back to the earth, even if they had been totally incinerated or evaporated or broken down gradually by bugs, worms and the weather. "

Why would HE want to do that?

That's not worthy of Creator Being we call God.

This is ignoring Apostols' and Jesus' teaching and His amazing Revelaton.

It is certainly not ignoring Jesus' teaching. It is understanding his teaching. You say "why would God resurrect people like they were, even if they had been evaporated?" Well, what is the alternative? I don't understand your objection to that.