The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witness literature never shows the face of God (we call God Jehovah) in our illustrations; in the picture above is an artists impression of the resurrected Jesus (JWs are not trinitarians so God and Jesus are not viewed as being the same).

JW

Does the Jehovah's Witness religious organisation think of Jesus in any way as GODs representative in the affairs of humankind? Does the imagery convey that Jesus is doing a 'Jesus impression of GOD' or are the two unrelated in regards to that?

The image expresses a Monarchical idea of GOD, in the form of Jesus, so unless you are saying that Jesus did not represent GOD, or that the artist impression does not represent 'the real' Jesus, are you not simply splitting hairs in regard to both artist impression and what the Jehovah's Witness religious organisation are trying to convey through the message of the artwork?

As to what I said in my previous post, while the organisation claims it is not part of Christendom, due to those two points I spoke of, the organisation is undeniably one of the many daughters of Christendom.

Certainly Christendom's shared impression of Jesus is like the picture in the artists impression.

The idea of monarchy readily acclimates itself to the mind because it just makes sense.....there must be some final authority, and that would fall to one wise individual, somehow. Is there one wise individual among men toward whom all men should look? Mankind has tried, for millennia, to raise above everyone else one particular man or woman, but it has never worked. What DOES work, however, is looking far above ALL men, to the one who made all things, the God of the Bible, Jehovah (Psalm 83:18). We can be assured that when we pay attention to him we will not be disappointed.

Why should JWs be considered a part of or an offshoot of Christendom because we recognize a "monarchy"? That is the only form of government that works (though we must have a RELIABLE monarch), so, reasonably, all of mankind would support that way of government. JWs just look to the one true God, Jehovah, as the only monarch that we can fully rely on.

Jesus has been given authority by Jehovah to rule for a thousand years. He does represent Jehovah. He will do everything the way Jehovah wants it done. It is just a kindness on Jehovah's part to allow His Son to rule in His stead over the earth. The kingdom will be handed back to Jehovah after the thousand years. (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 57 by William]

I was just clearing up a possible misconception that the picture was of YHWH (Jehovah) when it was in fact an artists impression of the resurrected Jesus.

Of course Jesus represents Jehovah, but *I* represent Jehovah (all Jehovah's Witnesses do) this doesn't mean we are the same person and since most atheists and so-called ""christians that don't associate with an organized religion that I have met believe the bible presents a trinitarian view (ie that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person). I believe it was relevant to point out who was in the illustration.



An artists impression of Jehovah and the resurrected Jesus would show two different individuals.


JW




Why do Jehovah's Witnesses illustrations depict the 144,000 all as white males?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 721#879721]

[peacedove]

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

If the question is meant: what do you think N.T. authors have to say about the temporal aspect of the Kingdom of God, then the answer is most certainly present and future.

That the kingdom of God is in the future is the easier to defend: Paul's 'God will be all in all". The more difficult is the argument that it has already begun, but is not completed.

But there are also indications that the Kingdom of God is present. In the opening of Gal., Paul declares Jesus has delivered us from this present age. The wording is quite explicit. Paul strikes the balance--the present age continues (it is present, after all), and yet Christians are delivered from it (presumably into a non-present age, i.e., the future).

In Matthew Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is "among you", and therefore not future. But he also speaks of a future time of judgment (both good and bad; feasts and festivities as well as banishment).

In the New Testament we have the already and the not yet. We have the initiation and the consummation.

But the 'not yet' is always spoken of as immanent.

For example, with the help of Young's Literal Translation (others try to hide the language!):
For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. (Mat 16:27)

because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead. (Acts 17:31)

'then Paul said unto him, `God is about to smite thee, thou whitewashed wall, and thou -- thou dost sit judging me according to the law, and, violating law, dost order me to be smitten!'' (Acts 23:3)

'having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;' (Acts 24:15)

'and he reasoning concerning righteousness, and temperance, and the judgment that is about to be, Felix, having become afraid, answered, `For the present be going, and having got time, I will call for thee;'' (Acts 24:25)

'`Having obtained, therefore, help from God, till this day, I have stood witnessing both to small and to great, saying nothing besides the things that both the prophets and Moses spake of as about to come, that the Christ is to suffer, whether first by a rising from the dead, he is about to proclaim light to the people and to the nations.'' (Acts 26:22-23)

'For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us' (Rom 8:18)

for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38-39)

So then, let no one glory in men, for all things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things about to be -- all are yours, and ye [are] Christ's, and Christ [is] God's. (1 Cor 3:21-23)

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed (Gal 3:23)

'I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign' (2 Tim 4:1)

'are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?' (Heb 1:14)

'but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;' (Heb 10:27)

Be obedient to those leading you, and be subject, for these do watch for your souls, as about to give account, that with joy they may do this, and not sighing, for this [is] unprofitable to you. (Heb 13:17)

Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker, (1 Pet 5:1)

Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things; (Rev 1:19)

The kingdom, the coming in power, the resurrection, the judgement of the living and the dead, the revelation of the son of God, the devouring of the enemies, the fulfilment of prophecy all these things were said to be about to be. Why not accept that they happened in the First Century?

Things cannot be on the point of happening if they still haven't happened generations later. That is not about to be, that is coming after an extended delay.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 60 by onewithhim]


"Those who had NDE experienced what drugs do to the brain, period. They had "witnessed in heavenly light" exactly what the populations of the various native tribes have done through the years when they smoked their peyote or consumed some special mushrooms."

On what basis are you making this claim?

[ttruscott]

Nothing could be clearer, the kingdom is present.

In the parable of the sinful but good seed, the good seed are called the people of the kingdom Matt 13:37-38 and these people who are already of the kingcom are being sown / born (not created) into the world by the Son of Man... The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth.

All Jesus kingdom parables are about the kingdom in its present and/or future aspects.
None say "The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth".
There are no "people who are already of the kingdom" before the sower begins to sow.

Jesus did tell us that the good seed are the people of the kingdom that He sowed into the world (of human affairs). My interpretation of this has as much validity as does yours.

Considering that the sowing of the people of the evil one IF it refers to their creation at conception or birth is by the devil then someone, either the devil or GOD is creating souls as evil destined to hell with no chance for redemption...the harshest blasphemy against the loving righteousness and justice of GOD I can imagine.

I champion GOD’s holiness:
- GOD did not need evil for HIS plan and did not create evil nor evil people for any reason.
- All evil is creature-created by their true free will

I champion Our Free will:
- All spirits created in the image of GOD were created with the ability to make true free will decisions.
- All spirits created in the image of GOD had the equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or to become eternally evil by their free will.

[William]

[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]

I was just clearing up a possible misconception that the picture was of YHWH (Jehovah) when it was in fact an artists impression of the resurrected Jesus.

I understand. So this impression represents Jesus, not your idea of GOD [ YHWH (Jehovah)] but do you believe that Jesus represents that GOD or does he represent himself, in relation to this image?

Of course Jesus represents Jehovah, but *I* represent Jehovah (all Jehovah's Witnesses do) this doesn't mean we are the same person and since most atheists and so-called ""christians that don't associate with an organized religion that I have met believe the bible presents a trinitarian view (ie that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person). I believe it was relevant to point out who was in the illustration.

Specifically that was not my argument. However, it can be argued that the organisation you represent which also claims to represent that particular idea of GOD, enthrones itself above all other theists, (and people in general) in that it claims to be the true representation of that GOD.
If you knocked on my door claiming to represent that GOD, and showed me these images, how am I not to conclude that the GOD you are representing is an elitist, or more to the point, an invention of elitists?

I would also ask you then if you thought of yourself and your understanding of what GOD is as as superior to me and my own understanding of what GOD is[see post #47 of this thread.]. How would you answer me?

An artists impression of Jehovah and the resurrected Jesus would show two different individuals.

In saying that, you offer an artists impression of this representation. In that, we have an image of a human standing on the right hand side of a throne, and another human shaped being mostly covered with light, but that beings hand can be seen coming out of that costume of light.

So even with that imagery - which I can safety assume is representative of [ YHWH (Jehovah)] there is still the overall impression of monarchism which is what my post was speaking about in relation to False GODs, and 'clearing up' any possible misconception I might have in relation to the JW religious organisation, does not in itself address that focus of argument.

I have clearly stated in post # 47 of this thread, that Christendom has been deceived and is continuing to deceive the world with their idea of GOD and that the organisation and the idea of GOD you represent, are part of Christendom, (as the images clearly show) and part of that deception.

[William]

[Replying to post 61 by onewithhim]

The idea of monarchy readily acclimates itself to the mind because it just makes sense.....there must be some final authority, and that would fall to one wise individual, somehow.

Specifically the argument I have made (see post 47 of this thread) is that 'the final authority' as you put it, is centered on the subject of The One True GOD and in relation to the history of humans and GODs, this has not been decided by any authority except human ones and in this, the stories about it create imagery within human minds which artist can then make impressions of.

None of which mean anything in relation to 'some final authority' which - in this case - is a story of a promise which itself comes from human beings, and as pointed out, is exactly what one would expect would come from the minds of elitists.

The assumption you and Christendom and other such organised religions make is that GOD 'has to be this way, because it just makes sense' isn't taking into account that it makes sense in relation to elitism, and it makes sense that elitists would market into the human mind, such an idea of GOD as being 'the true representation of what GOD actually is', because it is made in the image of elitist human beings and believed to be correct by those who support elitist agendas. Knowingly and unknowingly.

There is no other reason why anyone should believe that 'it just makes sense', especially given the logic that any TRUE GOD would have no need for thrones and costumes and armies and enemies or even forms in which to use to proclaim itself GOD.

The Big IF
Even if beings were to actually come from 'above' and proclaim to be representatives of our 'creator' - and one of them sits on the throne surrounded by an army, would not mean they were being truthful.

Even if they removed the elitists currently controlling this world, and placed themselves into those positions of leadership, and proved to be benevolent and good for humankind, there is no need for them to do so in the name of any GOD, as if somehow that would make any difference. They would just be doing what they should do, because they can do so.

But if they made conditions to humanity which had to do with worshiping them/their idea of GOD and paying homage to their superior position and insisted we proclaim their idea of GOD as being representative of "The One True GOD", and any who refused to believe this demand as necessary were not given any assistance, then that can be classed as yet another type of elitism, and like all elitism, conditional on falling before these beings and worshiping them as representative of a GOD who actually requires that type of worship.

And that is only if the story is actually true in the sense that it was promised and did happen.
At present the story is most likely fabricated to give false hope to the non elitists - to the ordinary humans the elitists presently control. But the point is, it could perhaps be something the elitists might one day actually be able to act out, and so my point is that the reasoning behind whatever makes you think such a thing is something that 'just makes sense', isn't unquestionable truth and isn't that exactly what any deception is trying to portray to those who are being deceived? That the 'truth' of the deception is unquestionable?

But taking care not to be deceived involves examining all claims and any accompanying evidence attached to such claims (such as the imagery) and finding therein where possible deception might probably be occurring.

And that is my job, as someone who is taking care not to be deceived.

Why should JWs be considered a part of or an offshoot of Christendom because we recognize a "monarchy"?

Because it is most likely to be the case that the Real GOD (any real GOD) is not a monarch, as I explained in post #47. Also because JWs also believe that the bible is the 'word of GOD' - that is another big clue.

That is why I consider JWs to be a daughter [sect] of that mother [Christendom]. JWs see clearly enough the deception which is occurring in Christendom, but they are blind to the deception they themselves are involved with because they have been taught that they are separated from Christendom and the deceptions, but they carry the imagery and the belief about the bible being the word of GOD.

Therein is the relational link.

[Checkpoint]

Nothing could be clearer, the kingdom is present.

In the parable of the sinful but good seed, the good seed are called the people of the kingdom Matt 13:37-38 and these people who are already of the kingcom are being sown / born (not created) into the world by the Son of Man... The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth.

All Jesus kingdom parables are about the kingdom in its present and/or future aspects.

None say "The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth".
There are no "people who are already of the kingdom" before the sower begins to sow.

Jesus did tell us that the good seed are the people of the kingdom that He sowed into the world (of human affairs). My interpretation of this has as much validity as does yours.

And readers can choose which, if either, they agree or disagree with.

Considering that the sowing of the people of the evil one IF it refers to their creation at conception or birth is by the devil then someone, either the devil or GOD is creating souls as evil destined to hell with no chance for redemption...the harshest blasphemy against the loving righteousness and justice of God.

God is both love and a consuming fire.

What if God...

Romans 9:

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.�
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?�
20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ �
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I champion GOD’s holiness:
- GOD did not need evil for HIS plan and did not create evil nor evil people for any reason.
- All evil is creature-created by their true free will

I Champion Our Free will

Yes, a free will exercised in this life.

I c

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 60 by onewithhim]


"Those who had NDE experienced what drugs do to the brain, period. They had "witnessed in heavenly light" exactly what the populations of the various native tribes have done through the years when they smoked their peyote or consumed some special mushrooms."

On what basis are you making this claim?

What I've read in scientific journals, as well as using common sense (having learned that the Bible does not teach that we have a spirit body inside us that consciously continues to function even when we are mentally incapacitated).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 61 by onewithhim]

The idea of monarchy readily acclimates itself to the mind because it just makes sense.....there must be some final authority, and that would fall to one wise individual, somehow.

The Big IF

Even if they removed the elitists currently controlling this world, and placed themselves into those positions of leadership, and proved to be benevolent and good for humankind, there is no need for them to do so in the name of any GOD, as if somehow that would make any difference. They would just be doing what they should do, because they can do so.

What if the God that is being represented were truly benevolent and worthy of being represented? What if He really was the Source of all life? What if He really did create everything? Why would we NOT honor Him?