What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?

[jgh7]

I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.

[Left Site]

Perhaps you misunderstood the point of my post.

More than just Rev 5:10 indicate that the reign is upon the earth.

Perhaps you misunderstood mine. It cannot reasonably used at all, so "more than just" is inaccurate. "More than just" in the English language indicates X can be used but are also additional elements to be added to that which is already counted as valid. My point is that X is not the first of others, it cannot be used at all.

To illustrate: If I say "There is more than just chocolate to eat here" it means there is chocolate to eat but there will also be other things. If there is no chocolate you cannot say "there is more than just chocolate to eat here" That would make no sense

If you say there is "more than just Revelation 5:10" it means we can count Revelation but there are other additional verses to prove the point which is not the case. If we discard Revelation as support then we cannot say "there is more than just Revelation.

Hope that helps,

JW

Just as it is improper to use Revelation 5: 10 to establish where the 144,000 will live, so too it is improper to use 1 Corinthians chapter 15 for that purpose.

Example: Scriptures like 1 Corinthian 15:50 are merely telling us that for a man to qualify for God's kingdom he has to be made new in his spirit. It doesn't matter how healthy the flesh of a man is, flesh and blood are not what it takes to get into God's kingdom. It requires that we come to be incorruptible in the inner man. And it is the that which is mortal is able to receive God's blessing of immortality.

[Left Site]

Just as it is improper to use Revelation 5: 10 to establish where the 144,000 will live, so too it is improper to use 1 Corinthians chapter 15 for that purpose.

Example: Scriptures like 1 Corinthian 15:50 are merely telling us that for a man to qualify for God's kingdom he has to be made new in his spirit. It doesn't matter how healthy the flesh of a man is, flesh and blood are not what it takes to get into God's kingdom. It requires that we come to be incorruptible in the inner man. It is then that which is mortal is able to receive God's blessing of immortality.

Above is my previous post with a small spelling correction. I would like to clarify and expand upon what I there said.


There at 1 Corinthians 15:50, to say, flesh and blood cannot inherit Gods kingdom, is like saying, being born of flesh and blood is not how anyone inherits God's kingdom because inheriting that kingdom is not a fleshly birth right.

If our mind is conditioned to think that Paul might be speaking about going to heaven and needing to literally become a spirit for that reason, then that will blind us to the very simple point 1 Corinthians 15:50 is making. Even as some read my paragraph two above in this post, their minds will be busier thinking on the surrounding verses and why I must be wrong, Belief is a powerful thing. Accurate belief gives us added insight, whereas inaccurate belief stifles our insight. I will address some of those surrounding verses but I wish to move slow enough that we can discuss also what things we need to be aware of in us so as to free ourselves to comprehend.

The flesh and blood corporation known as 'Jehovah's Witnesses' publicly admit that they are the locust army of the book of Joel. You can find that admission in their book, 'Revelation's Grand Climax.' I am here telling you that many preachers from all of the various religions have been a part of that army, running up walls with their inaccurate messages, crawling on the roofs of houses and searching out ways to enter in. (Joel 2:9-10) Because this has proved irritating and objectionable it has served the purpose of waking up lovers of truth. We have said in our hearts, Enough is enough! And with that we set out to sort our way through the mess and find real truth.

It is almost time for Joel 2: 18-20

18 And Jehovah will be zealous for his land and will show compassion upon his people.
19 And Jehovah will answer and say to his people, Here I am sending to
YOU the grain and the new wine and the oil, and YOU people will certainly be satisfied with it; and I shall not make YOU anymore a reproach among the nations.
20 And the northerner I shall put far away from upon YOU, and I shall actually disperse him to a waterless land and desolated waste, with his face to the eastern sea and his rear section to the western sea. And the stink from him will certainly ascend, and the stench from him will keep ascending; for He will actually do a great thing in what He does.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 92 by BusB]

Fair enough, I respect you feel strongly about your convictions. We all pray for the kingdom to come.

Be well,

JW

[Benoni]

12 is the number of divine Government 12x12 + 144,000 meaning total devine government.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 92 by BusB]

Fair enough, I respect you feel strongly about your convictions. We all pray for the kingdom to come.

Be well,

JW

I am not saying that we are tired of speaking to those who like ourselves humbly admit they are still growing in understanding. I am speaking of all those who are so cocksure they have already achieved full understanding, as if they have become perfect ahead of all the rest of us. That is what we no longer desire to entertain.

I am going to give you just one more little point showing how what we believe blinds us. In 1 Corinthians 15 we read in verses 35-49 we read about bodies which are of the same sort of glory as the heavenly. We do well to remember John 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father..." Jesus thus exhibited the body which is of the heavenly sort to us right there in the flesh. Adam had not yet reached perfection spiritually, as his inner man would have been incorruptible and he never would have chosen to sin against God.

The human who finally reaches that perfect image of God will be of the same sort and glory as the heavenly bodies. It misses the point to see it as speaking about having to change literally out of the flesh and take on a literal spirit body.

1 Corinthians 15: 48 "As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also."

That is not saying we have to literally become spirit bodies. It is speaking about that image man was meant to bear of God: 49 "And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one."

Do you get that? Rather than literally changing out of the flesh to a spirit body we bear the image of it. You do believe that God made man to be capable of achieving that perfect image of God with God's teaching, don't you?

[Left Site]

I see that for the verse quoted below the 2013 NWT refers us to Romans 2:6-7'

1 Corinthians 15: 42 "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown
in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. b" (NWT - 2013)

Romans 2: 6-7
6 "And he will pay back to each one according to his works:
7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good...." (NWT - 2013)

That makes it clear this is speaking about all men and not just 144,000. But if you are uncertain of that, then, at least believe what the context reveals concerning that "everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good":

Romans 2: 9-11
9 There will be tribulation and distress on every person who works what is harmful, on the Jew first and also on the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God."

The only thing that differs for the 144,000 is that they rule as king/priests for the thousand years.

[tam]

Peace to you BusB,

[Replying to post 86 by tam]

I fully agree with you that the 144,000 will live and reign as king/priests right here on earth. When one digs deep enough into the Old Testament they find that to be the only conclusion possible.

And there are other ways to understand the New Testament verses which seem to indicate otherwise.

Not just the 144 000 reign with Christ during the 'thousand years'. The 144 000 are a sub portion of the great multitude that makes up the Bride, and all reign with Christ for the thousand years.

What makes the 144 000 different is that a) they are sealed before the loosing of the four winds; before the great tribulation, and b) they are descended from literal Israel - 12 000 each from the 12 listed tribes.

That is why those tribes are specifically listed by name.

They are the remnant that God reserved for Himself from Israel (and He always reserved a remnant for Himself), so that Israel was guaranteed to have at least 144 000 places, due to His promise and love to/for Abraham.

However, it is also written that those who reign with Christ are from every tribe, nation, people, tongue language.

They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation... Rev 5:9


Hence, there are more than just 144 000 (and the great crowd was a number that no one could count). ALL are Christian though; ALL are anointed with holy spirit before Christ returns.

**

And while they do reign upon the earth with Christ, they also went with Christ to heaven for the marriage. Hence, the Bride (as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem) can "come down out of heaven".

One must be IN a place before one can come down out of that place.


You may have understood that already; I just wanted to clarify.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 95 by BusB]

Well I can see you posted and I fully acknowledge that. We all want to be happy, the bible is a wonderful book.


Regards,

JW

[Left Site]

Peace to you BusB,

[Replying to post 86 by tam]

I fully agree with you that the 144,000 will live and reign as king/priests right here on earth. When one digs deep enough into the Old Testament they find that to be the only conclusion possible.

And there are other ways to understand the New Testament verses which seem to indicate otherwise.

Not just the 144 000 reign with Christ during the 'thousand years'. The 144 000 are a sub portion of the great multitude that makes up the Bride, and all reign with Christ for the thousand years.

What makes the 144 000 different is that a) they are sealed before the loosing of the four winds; before the great tribulation, and b) they are descended from literal Israel - 12 000 each from the 12 listed tribes.

That is why those tribes are specifically listed by name.

They are the remnant that God reserved for Himself from Israel (and He always reserved a remnant for Himself), so that Israel was guaranteed to have at least 144 000 places, due to His promise and love to/for Abraham.

However, it is also written that those who reign with Christ are from every tribe, nation, people, tongue language.

They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation... Rev 5:9


Hence, there are more than just 144 000 (and the great crowd was a number that no one could count). ALL are Christian though; ALL are anointed with holy spirit before Christ returns.

**

And while they do reign upon the earth with Christ, they also went with Christ to heaven for the marriage. Hence, the Bride (as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem) can "come down out of heaven".

One must be IN a place before one can come down out of that place.


You may have understood that already; I just wanted to clarify.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

First, let's establish the fact that there is a scriptural difference between a king and a prince:

1 Chronicles 24:6 Then She-maiah the son of Ne-thanel the secretary of the Levites wrote them down before the king and the princes and Zadok the priest and A-hime-lech the son of A-bia-thar and the heads of the fathers of the priests and of the Levites, one paternal house being picked out for El-e-azar and one being picked out for Itha-mar.

God speaking to the ten tribe kingdom of Israel at Hosea 13:10-11
10 Where, then, is your king, that he may save you in all your cities, and your judges, [concerning] whom you said, Do give me a king and princes?
11 I proceeded to give you a king in my anger, and I shall take [him] away in my fury.

Kings use princes to control over jurisdictional districts: See 1Kiings 20:14; Esther 1:1; Ecclesiastes 2:8; Ezekiel 19:8.

Conclusion:

From the great multitude (or, great crowd) come the princes who rule over the many jurisdictional districts which will exist in the new earth. Even as the king/priests need to be readied first, the princely controllers of their jurisdictional districts also must be readied shortly thereafter as a beginning of order in the new earth.

Thus the great multitude are not kings like the 144,000 who represent Christ's rulership to the people. Those princes of the great multitude represent those kings who represent Christ doing so only in a princely capacity.

[JehovahsWitness]

First, let's establish the fact that there is a scriptural difference between a king and a prince

Well we know Jesus is called both a "king" and a "Prince". Revelation speaks of individuals ruling with Jesus as kings.

REVELATION 20:6
Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but[they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

That said, there is indeed a distinction made in scripture between the two groups (the 144,000 and the "great multitude" (great crowd) mentioned in Revelation 7:9.

Thus the great multitude are not kings like the 144,000 who represent Christ's rulership to the people.

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